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Author Topic: Cain's Palestine Blunder  (Read 1593 times)

Feud

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2011, 06:51:59 AM »
Today is a good example.

Today, the Greek Parliament announced they'd have a national referendum on the Euro Package.  Subsequently, our stock market fell several hundred points.  It wasn't an invasion, it wasn't a civil war, it wasn't a sudden loss of a market or a severing of a supply chain, it was announcing a national vote.

Whether we like it or not, what happens in the world affects us significantly.  Even if we were to go total isolationist, with some bizarre North Korean-esque Juche economy that actually worked, we still have to worry about foreign markets for our goods.  But, that's simply not possible.  Everything impacts us.  Local problems become state problems, state problems become regional problems, and from there global.  We can't fix them all, but pretending that they don't impact us doesn't change the fact that they do.  There's a lot of room for opinion in politics, saying otherwise in this case isn't a matter of opinion, it's just simply factually incorrect.

That's part of what makes Cain such an unattractive candidate.  He seems to have no grasp of what he's saying actually means.  Both domestically and internationally, he says something silly, it gets pointed out how absurd what he's saying is , and then he plays it off as somehow being a good thing since it means he doesn't have a political background.  

No, it's not good that Cain doesn't know basic, fundamental policy terms and problems, and I'm not keen on electing someone who's ignorant of the world in hopes that he'll organize a cabinet that both knows what it's doing and takes the decision making power away from him.  

Cain seems like a nice guy. And, with a few more years of preparation, study, and experience, he might make a fine Presidential nominee.  But he's not ready, and he's not qualified.  

When the game is on the line and you need to decide which relief pitcher to use, you don't send in the mascot because everyone likes him.  You send in someone who actually knows what they're doing.  Cain ran a business?  Good for him.  That's not the same as holding executive public office, no more so than holding public office means you're suddenly qualified to run a business (as so many love to point out).

And, as I've said many times before, calling someone a "RINO" is silly.  When someone says "RINO", it means absolutely nothing other than "I don't like them".  Guess what, there's more than one type of Republican.  Kicking everyone out of the party except for those who adhere exactly to your brand of conservatism might make you feel warm for a few moments, but you'll lose every election.  That's not being a responsible electorate, just old fashioned narcissism.

In theory, Republicans are adults.  It's time we acted like it.
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." - William F Buckley

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TommyGunn

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2011, 12:53:13 PM »
Heard ya the first time!  ;)
"Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero.

Doug Wojtowicz

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2011, 06:45:45 PM »
Come on Doug.  You know it doesn't work like that.

They have something we want.  So long as we continue to want it, we'll have to make concessions.  That true of most things we do anywhere in the world.  Rare it is that we do anything that doesn't have some sort of potential return. 


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There can't be that many princes that we can't kill them all and install far friendlier, far more controlled puppets.

Hell, if the world wants to think we're up to our elbows in Muppets hewn from the skins of those who disagreed with us... let's do it.

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Feud

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2011, 03:35:19 PM »
In a move that I'm sure will strengthen everyone's confidence in his grasp and knowldege of foreign policy, in a PBS interview on Monday Cain expressed concern that China might be trying to develope nuclear capability. Apparently no one told him that China detonated thei first atomic bomb in 1964, and has thus been a nuclear power for almost fifty years. Don't worry though, I'm sure this won't impact his strategy to break the Soviet blockade of West Berlin, tentativly called his "Nein, Nein, Nein" plan.
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." - William F Buckley

"Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion"- Edmund Burke

Doug Wojtowicz

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2011, 06:00:17 PM »
Didn't you hear, Herman Cain won't read anything if it's more than 3 pages.    :whistle
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Feud

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2011, 06:28:35 PM »
Huh, not sure how that got double posted (and with a quote box, no less).  Mods, feel free to delete it!
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." - William F Buckley

"Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion"- Edmund Burke

fnfnc64

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2011, 06:52:33 PM »
In a move that I'm sure will strengthen everyone's confidence in his grasp and knowldege of foreign policy, in a PBS interview on Monday Cain expressed concern that China might be trying to develope nuclear capability. Apparently no one told him that China detonated thei first atomic bomb in 1964, and has thus been a nuclear power for almost fifty years. Don't worry though, I'm sure this won't impact his strategy to break the Soviet blockade of West Berlin, tentativly called his "Nein, Nein, Nein" plan.
WHAT?!!!!!! I was born in 64 and Im not almost 50! Almost 48 maybe, but certainly not almost 50! Geeze!
What was this thread about? ??? Someone, I think on one of the talk radio shows the other day, don't remember which one, said if Cain got the nomination and went against obama, it would be Cain vs un-able. I'm not real impressed with any of the Republicans right now, but come next November my vote gets cast for who ever has the best shot of beating the jackass-in-chief. I dont care if Cain doesn't realize the U.S. is a nuclear power. Hes there next November- He's the guy!
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Kaso

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2011, 07:05:54 PM »
The sad thing is, if Barry ever lost his prompter, he might not know, either.

Kaso

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2011, 07:49:36 PM »
In a move that I'm sure will strengthen everyone's confidence in his grasp and knowldege of foreign policy, in a PBS interview on Monday Cain expressed concern that China might be trying to develope nuclear capability. Apparently no one told him that China detonated thei first atomic bomb in 1964, and has thus been a nuclear power for almost fifty years. Don't worry though, I'm sure this won't impact his strategy to break the Soviet blockade of West Berlin, tentativly called his "Nein, Nein, Nein" plan.

His campaign says he meant developing nuclear ships/submarines.
Yeah,  :facepalm he needs to be more specific when he puts forth his agendas.... :nervous

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.....his strategy to break the Soviet blockade of West Berlin, tentativly called his "Nein, Nein, Nein" plan.
:scrutiny  Very funny, Herr Feud....
"Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero.

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2011, 12:51:48 AM »
Oh, man I just caught the 999 pun. 


Feud....

What could we ever do without your puns?
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Correia

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2011, 01:33:04 PM »
Uh, part of Cain's job at the Navy was related to Chinese nuclear weapons... I'm fairly certain he knows they have nukes.

But let's not let that get in the way of the narrative. The dude gets interviewed all day. Just wait for something that can be spun as supid and POUNCE! Repeat it enough and it will stick. Hell, just yesterday I had somebody tell me that the dude that shot Giffords was in the Tea Party. Since the absolute worst thing that could ever happen to the democrat party would be for a black conservative to run for president, they'll keep tossing up new narratives until they find one that sticks. He's a womanizer. He's an idiot. Normally they'd go for racism but that's tougher here. Next up will probably be heartless rich guy, tax evasion, or being a mean poopy head.

Meanwhile the president makes constant gaffes and the VP is blathering idiot, but they get a pass from most of the media.

Color me relatively unconcerned about Cain's knowledge base. According to the narrative Ronald Regan was supposed to be a blithering idiot on foreign policy as well.

Feud

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2011, 02:09:23 PM »
You're right, day in and day out he gets interviewed. Consequently, day in and day out he says silly things. Eventually one has to wonder if there is a reason why.

I'm not a democrat, I'm not an Obama supporter, I don't dislike Cain because of his race, and I am unconcerned with the current allegations against him. Writing it off as a giant liberal plot makes, as you say, a good narative.  But that's not what I'm doing, and that doesn't change the fact that he is constantly saying things that indicate he has no grasp of what he is trying to be put in charge of.

Color me very concerned with it. Reagan at least had experience, he knew how to manage public sector organizations and how to enact policy in republican government. Cain doesn't. He doesn't know how to garner political support for good policies, he doesn't know how to manage executive agencies, he doesn't know basic info on both foreign and domestic policy. He doesn' know what the job actually is, much less how to do it.

Like I said, he seems like a good guy. With another election or two of preperation, I think he'd be a great candidate. But right now he's not ready to deliver, and electing him will be the republican version of the Obama disaster.
"I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said." - William F Buckley

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Correia

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2011, 05:48:39 PM »
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You're right, day in and day out he gets interviewed. Consequently, day in and day out he says silly things.

Fued, I can take a handful of your internet posts, quote them selectively, and make you look like whatever I want you to. Now imagine how much fodder you'd provide if you talked all day and had to come up with answers on the spot. It is a question of volume and the degree to which your opponents are willing to manipulate you.

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Eventually one has to wonder if there is a reason why.
Dur. Black Republican is totally unnacceptable and could jeapordize the Democrat stranglehold on minority votes. They're going to destroy him any way they can. If the sexual harrassment stuff doesn't stick, expect a new tactic next week.

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Writing it off as a giant liberal plot makes, as you say, a good narative.
I see what you tried to do there.  Very clever. :)  However, I'm saying that there is a definate liberal media bias. You are saying that Cain isn't smart enough to be president. I'm saying that the only reason he looks that way is due to the liberal media bias. You don't accomplish what he has accomplished in life by being ignorant.

On the topic of Reagan's experience, this is before both of our time, but go back and look at what the narrative was about him... In fact, I want you to try to think of the last time that ANY republican candidate was spun as intelligent... It hasn't been in either of our life times.  The auto setting for the repub candidate is always that they are doddering, stupid, ignorant, etc. Usually however they are played on SNL quickly becomes the accepted historical view. The dems have claimed to be the party of smart and their narrative has reinforced that for generations. Just like they are the party of science and compassion.

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He doesn't know how to garner political support for good policies, he doesn't know how to manage executive agencies, he doesn't know basic info on both foreign and domestic policy. He doesn' know what the job actually is, much less how to do it.
That is a lot of conjecture based upon a couple of statements. They weren't even drastically wrong statements as much as they were statements that could be taken in different contexts. To take your flailings in order, 1. Garnering support, dude was CEO of a couple of major corporations. CEOs know how to delegate and schmooze. What do you think is harder? Arm twisting congressmen who want to get reelected to spend the taxpayer's money, or arm twisting hard business folks who care only about making money to spend their own money?  2.  How to manage an executive agency... Put somebody in charge of it that is good at that kind of thing and tell them Make It So.  Fed.gov has agencies for everything. No president could possibly know what most of the useless organizations do. Their job is to lead, not manage. Managers are for managing. Good executives pick managers. 3. Not knowing basic info, once again, conjecture based upon a couple of statements. 4. Not knowing what the president does? Yeah, now you're just full of crap. :)

Cain was a mathmatician and he's taken nearly bankrupt giant corporations and turned them around. That's a pretty darn good real life record. Regardless of being tripped up during 24/7 questioning and saying things imperfectly, he's demonstrated in his life that he's intelligent and capable. 

Whether you like it or not, it is now down to Romney and Cain for the Republican nomination.  The most important thing is Obama goes down. Whoever gets the nod, I'm 100% behind. So the question now is Cain or Romney. Even if you are correct in every one of your concerns about Cain (which I think you are overstating a few for dramatic effect), I don't see Romney rolling back the big government cheese as much.

Feud

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2011, 06:20:38 PM »
I see what you tried to do there.  Very clever. :)  However, I'm saying that there is a definate liberal media bias. You are saying that Cain isn't smart enough to be president. I'm saying that the only reason he looks that way is due to the liberal media bias. You don't accomplish what he has accomplished in life by being ignorant.

I actually didn't say he wasn't smart enough, in fact I've said the opposite.  What I've said is that he isn't educated enough on the topics relevant to the position.  And you're right, you don't accomplish that much by being ignorant, but that doesn't mean that what he knows is applicable to the Presidency.  A neurosurgeon is certainly not ignorant, nor is the person stupid.  But, that doesn't mean you want them to represent you in court, or that they know how to manage a large corporation's budget and taxes.

As I said, with more experience I think Cain would be a great candidate.  I don't think he's dumb.  But ignorant of this particular field?  Yes.

That is a lot of conjecture based upon a couple of statements. They weren't even drastically wrong statements as much as they were statements that could be taken in different contexts. To take your flailings in order, 1. Garnering support, dude was CEO of a couple of major corporations. CEOs know how to delegate and schmooze. What do you think is harder? Arm twisting congressmen who want to get reelected to spend the taxpayer's money, or arm twisting hard business folks who care only about making money to spend their own money?  2.  How to manage an executive agency... Put somebody in charge of it that is good at that kind of thing and tell them Make It So.  Fed.gov has agencies for everything. No president could possibly know what most of the useless organizations do. Their job is to lead, not manage. Managers are for managing. Good executives pick managers. 3. Not knowing basic info, once again, conjecture based upon a couple of statements. 4. Not knowing what the president does? Yeah, now you're just full of crap. :)

I'm drawing my opinion based upon several months worth of statements, not one or two. 

1. They certainly share skills, but that doesn't mean that understanding one means understanding the other.  A group of people on a board have the same motivation: profit.  That's all well and good.  In Congress though you have 535 people who all have various issues they care about, constituents to answer to, goals that they wish to pursue.  Which one is harder to corral on even a fundamental goal, not even how to do it?  Congress, hands down.

2. Indeed, you hire managers.  But, the bucks stops with the President.  If there isn't confidence in their ability to make a sound decision, then there can't be confidence that they will pick good managers.

3. Again, nope. 

4. It's one thing to know what the President does, it's another thing to know what he actually does.  Being the CEO of a company isn't the same thing as running a public office.  The goals are different, the processes are different, the laws are different.  I don't doubt Cain's ability to learn such, but he's not there yet, and I don't think we should give him the top job until he's shown some measure of ability in that sector.

Cain was a mathmatician and he's taken nearly bankrupt giant corporations and turned them around. That's a pretty darn good real life record. Regardless of being tripped up during 24/7 questioning and saying things imperfectly, he's demonstrated in his life that he's intelligent and capable. 

No doubt.

Whether you like it or not, it is now down to Romney and Cain for the Republican nomination.  The most important thing is Obama goes down. Whoever gets the nod, I'm 100% behind. So the question now is Cain or Romney. Even if you are correct in every one of your concerns about Cain (which I think you are overstating a few for dramatic effect), I don't see Romney rolling back the big government cheese as much.

I don't think Romney want's to roll it back as much, no.  But, I think he will roll it back more than Cain would.  The reason is ability.  Obama's big problem is that while he's a good campaigner, he's really a pretty lousy statesman.  He is great at getting into office, but horrible at the politics that gets stuff done.  Even when his party held Congress, he had to ramrod stuff through because he couldn't even get his own party on board with out liberal (haha!) use of the stick.  Now, he still promises a lot, but can't get anything done.

Cain, I think if elected now, would be similar.  He doesn't have the political capital or experience to count on, so unless he's a natural at legislative wrangling his efforts to roll back government are going to be a lot of words but very little results.  Cain can say he will do A, B and C, and he may very well do his best to do so, but that's for not if he can't deliver it.  Romney might only promise A and suggest he might also do B, but he's got the ability to actually do it.

If I've got a choice between someone who promises me 100% of what I want but can only deliver 25%, vs. someone who promises me 75% of what I want and delivers 50%, I pick the second.*  Romney is not even close to my preferred candidate, but in terms of what I think he will actually accomplish, I think he's the better bet. 

*All numbers made up.
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Thernlund

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Re: Cain's Palestine Blunder
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2011, 06:25:45 PM »
To sum up...

Correia:  For the GOP nominee
Feud:  Against Cain

Check.

Now that that's settled, let's move on to guns.

Circular thread:  Closed.


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