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Author Topic: BSA goes transgender  (Read 3778 times)

RMc

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Re: BSA goes transgender
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2017, 01:18:09 PM »
From a personal viewpoint, the acceptance of transgender youth as "boys" is a sad event in Boy Scouting.  If for no other reason than the Boy Scouts of America was founded as an organization for practical outdoor fieldcraft and traditional values based training for boys - on their journey to manhood.  This most recent change is however, just one more event in a long chain of events reflecting a changing society and beyond the immediate scope of this discussion.

Now comes the related practical problems:

The BSA membership application now accepts boys based on the "gender" as listed by the youth's parent(s) or guardian(s).  This is not necessarily the gender listed on the child's birth certificate.  Thus,  presumably trangender youth members are considered to be "male."  And, like the problems facing the broader society, transgender "boys" will expect to participate in all activities and share the same sleeping areas/tents, restrooms, field latrines, showers, etc.  In short, they will want to be treated as "males."

This is not the same as making the traditional Boy Scout program coed.

Unless current Troop Leadership standards are changed, there will be no need to have Adult Scouters of both sexes present for Boy Scout troop campouts and other outings in which transgender "males" participate.  The presence of adult leadership of both sexes is however required for overnight trips in the BSA coed teenage Explorer and Venturing divisions.  The Cub Scout program does not have overnight campouts or events.

How BSA's national leadership will sort out these vexing issues remains to be seen.






 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 01:29:24 PM by RMc »
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    Plebian

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #51 on: February 03, 2017, 06:25:37 PM »
    In response to Kaso's rabbit hole,

    I know I make a large separation in my mind between what is codified by law, AND what society views as normal. I view society and the law as almost completely different things.

    The law should basically allow individual freedoms to the maximum amount without infringing on the rights of other individuals. IF all the folks involved in whatever thing you are doing consent. Then it should really be allowed by law. An age of majority where someone can grant consent is good to be codified. There is no perfect system of law. So you will always have anomalies that must be dealt with by some ruling system(courts). There is going to be some arbitrary laws for things like age of consent, age of majority etc etc. Which will just have to be determined by democratic action preferably.

    Most of these ideas about law are nothing new at all. They are old school liberal values of let it happen until you effect someone else.

    Society is basically free to dislike/label as perverse whatever they wish. As long as they function within the scope of the law. Then they can pretty well do as they please. What society determines as 'normal' is really going to be decided by the majority of the populace. Society tends to be that most horrible tyranny of the majority.

    If I speak in mathematical terms. The law sets the limits, and the society may act as a function within those limits.

    All of what I said is pretty well what the founding fathers of our country decided. Most of them were pretty intelligent and well read individuals. They also had some pretty perverse ideas for the time. They also understood you cannot make a perfect society. You can only set the bounds it can bounce around in and hope it goes in a good direction.     
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    MTK20

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #52 on: February 03, 2017, 07:44:37 PM »
    In response to Kaso's rabbit hole,

    I know I make a large separation in my mind between what is codified by law, AND what society views as normal. I view society and the law as almost completely different things.

    The law should basically allow individual freedoms to the maximum amount without infringing on the rights of other individuals. IF all the folks involved in whatever thing you are doing consent. Then it should really be allowed by law. An age of majority where someone can grant consent is good to be codified. There is no perfect system of law. So you will always have anomalies that must be dealt with by some ruling system(courts). There is going to be some arbitrary laws for things like age of consent, age of majority etc etc. Which will just have to be determined by democratic action preferably.

    Most of these ideas about law are nothing new at all. They are old school liberal values of let it happen until you effect someone else.

    Society is basically free to dislike/label as perverse whatever they wish. As long as they function within the scope of the law. Then they can pretty well do as they please. What society determines as 'normal' is really going to be decided by the majority of the populace. Society tends to be that most horrible tyranny of the majority.

    If I speak in mathematical terms. The law sets the limits, and the society may act as a function within those limits.

    All of what I said is pretty well what the founding fathers of our country decided. Most of them were pretty intelligent and well read individuals. They also had some pretty perverse ideas for the time. They also understood you cannot make a perfect society. You can only set the bounds it can bounce around in and hope it goes in a good direction.     

    This is basically what I was going to write. I might've added a little more philosophy or speak of human agency, but this is good  :thumbup1.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    Plebian

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #53 on: February 03, 2017, 08:27:15 PM »
    Also I tend to view anyone that says they wanna make a perfect society as suspect. Commies and Fascists tend to talk about making a new and better society. That has at least been true historically.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    MTK20

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #54 on: February 03, 2017, 09:37:18 PM »
    Democracy can be pretty ugly too. It never defends the rights of the smallest minority... The individual.

    Not nearly as bad as fascists or socialists, but it should be mentioned. People have no qualms about voting against other people's rights.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #55 on: February 05, 2017, 07:45:09 PM »
    This is basically what I was going to write. I might've added a little more philosophy or speak of human agency, but this is good  :thumbup1.
    To the degree that philosophy is the prevailing thought that underpins any system of laws, it is good to be reminded of it - or at least cognizant of it on some level.  God knows, this thread could use some of it.   Golly, I sure hope I didn't pi&& anybody off with that last remark.   :coffee
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    MTK20

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #56 on: February 05, 2017, 07:52:41 PM »
    To the degree that philosophy is the prevailing thought that underpins any system of laws, it is good to be reminded of it - or at least cognizant of it on some level.  God knows, this thread could use some of it.   Golly, I sure hope I didn't pi&& anybody off with that last remark.   :coffee

    Not exactly sure who your comment is aimed at, but if it was aimed at me, you know you are more than welcome to PM me to discuss our differences  :cool.

    I like to have my beliefs challenged every once in a while. I just might reply back to it the next day, I'm currently swamped  :banghead.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #57 on: February 05, 2017, 08:30:09 PM »
    It wasn't aimed at anyone in particular but rather at the direction this thread has taken.  Granted, given the subject matter of the OP it has remained at a level few other internet forums could match - especially considering we are three pages in. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    Outbreak

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #58 on: February 06, 2017, 01:05:21 AM »
    I'm an Eagle Scout. I believe in the good things Scouting teaches. I wouldn't be any kind of outdoorsman without the Scouts. I'd be another suburban millennial.

    Now I have a son. He's an infant, but as of now, when he's old enough, I'll gladly sign him up for Scouting. I'll even more gladly sign up to be a Leader.

    A friend and colleague voiced his opinion on "the gays" recently, saying he didn't want his kids to have to "see that." Guess what, bro. They're gonna run into it. It's part of our world now. They're out, they're proud, we're gonna have to deal with them. If I teach my son that those people are abnormal, are weird, are different, he'll just have a harder time in life as the "alternate lifestyles," or whatever they are called become more accepted.

    I'm gonna teach my boy that different people are just people until they try to hurt him. If they just want to live and get along, then they're just people.
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    sarge712

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #59 on: February 06, 2017, 09:23:48 AM »
    I am never offended by remarks about my religion as I grew up LDS in the deep South. I've heard it all. Ever'thing. I just laugh and prove them wrong when I can.

    BTW polygamy would be my version of Hell. I'd go mad trying to keep more than one woman happy.

    That said, I wouldn't want my kids to hear it as it might make a negative impression on a young mind and I don't want that rattling around in their heads.
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    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

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