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Author Topic: BSA goes transgender  (Read 3803 times)

MTK20

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Re: BSA goes transgender
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2017, 12:28:13 PM »
a 12 year old made this decision ?    really ?   a 12 year old.


yeah, yeah, I know,  I'm just a cynical old cop.    who has been involved with scouting for years and has taken the BSA youth protection training multiple times.   The entire goal is to protect the kids.  The goal of scouting is to prepare them for life.  our motto has long been "be prepared".  prepared for what ?  for any thing.

There are somewhere between 25 and 40 Million boy scouts in the world,  and 500 million alumni since scouting started in 1908 in England.

The fractional, minuscule, percentage of a percentage of a percentage that this represents, well,  we'll see what happens.  The only reason anyone is even hearing about this is someone want's the publicity.  someone wants to push.  This is not about a child,  this is about an agenda.   and that is my entire reason for being upset over this.   It's someone's political agenda and it is using a child as the focal point of their agenda.



side note, the Southern Baptist youth scouting group, back in my day, was called Royal Ambassadors.  Large parts were lifted wholesale from the scout handbook after the serial numbers had been filed off and a new coat of paint slapped on, with a heavy emphasis on SBC theology and a strong underlying that the RA's were the good saved kids and BSA was a secretly satanic worshiping secular group that if you joined them, you were doomed to hell and your parents were failures and held up as shameful examples to the congregation.

Funny thing about that.   Everyone knows the Boy Scouts.  no one ever heard of RA's outside of the church.

I don't see you practicing cynicism in this post, I see you doing arithmetic and connecting the dots. I have to say that I agree. Or do I have to wait until I'm 30 before they let me be that old and "cynical"?  :neener


I'm not so sure that I like the big Christian standpoint either. For being loving, Jesus emulating folk, there sure are a lot of hateful "christians" out there. Catholics don't like baptists, Church of Christ don't like Catholics, and no body seems to like the poor Mormons. Even the church I attend here (baptist) does denomination bashing (mainly Mormons).

Boy do I wish I knew that before telling the pastor I was thinking of converting from Catholic to LDS when I was younger :facepalm. Eh, oh well...
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    sarge712

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #26 on: February 01, 2017, 12:55:52 PM »
    I was first involved in scouting 35 years ago helping my "adoptive" dad with the troop at church. We had a blast out in the woods on "death" hikes, winter campouts, high adventure trips, etc. when scouting still had a connection to its roots.

    Fast forward 25 years later to my oldest son entering the same troop and there's a night and day difference and he hated it. I hated it too because it was so watered down and openly pansy-assed PC. I never made him go even though its still huge in the LDS church. I let him focus on sports and screw the BSA.

    Lately I've been pulled back into it due to my 12 year old son who loves it so far but the troop master has an old school focus on outdoor activities and steers the boys away from computer eco crap.

    Personally I hope this gender rule change is the last straw that causes the Church to cut ties and implement their own program.

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    Grognard

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #27 on: February 01, 2017, 08:03:48 PM »
    From what I hear, LDS and SBC and UM were all involved with launching TL-USA.
    and if TL-USA can split off just the boys from LDS, SBC and UM, that alone is 40%+ of BSA membership.
    I think the time is soon coming when the big congregations will announce that move.


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    Plebian

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #28 on: February 02, 2017, 02:43:08 AM »
    Can you explain what "horrible southern baptist way" means to this southern baptist?


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    Kaso pretty well nailed it.

    The particularly extra southern baptist also tend to look down on all the rest of the world as heathens. Since the rest of us didn't take some magical jebus bath.

    Southern baptist should not feel special tho. I poke fun at all the special magic sauce in all the religions I have ever encountered.
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    ksuguy

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #29 on: February 02, 2017, 08:32:42 AM »
    I refer to that as the Ned Flanders school of religion.
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #30 on: February 02, 2017, 09:26:51 AM »
    Yup.  My kids will no longer be involved in the BSA.   
    Shame... I've got 2 Eagles and two more on that path.
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #31 on: February 02, 2017, 09:30:21 AM »
    Kaso pretty well nailed it.

    The particularly extra southern baptist also tend to look down on all the rest of the world as heathens. Since the rest of us didn't take some magical jebus bath.

    Southern baptist should not feel special tho. I poke fun at all the special magic sauce in all the religions I have ever encountered.
    Please keep a respectful tone.
    Some of us might get offended by your choice of words here considering some of us put great faith in what you are mocking.   
    I'm not asking you to believe.   Just please have a degree of politeness. 
    As a Libertarian, I don't care if you go to hell or not.    :coffee
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    booksmart

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #32 on: February 02, 2017, 10:08:40 AM »
    There's a joke we tell down here:

    If you go fishing with a Southern Baptist, how do you keep him from drinking all of your beer?

    Take along another Southern Baptist...

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #33 on: February 02, 2017, 10:52:52 AM »
    Please keep a respectful tone.
    Some of us might get offended by your choice of words here considering some of us put great faith in what you are mocking.   
    I'm not asking you to believe.   Just please have a degree of politeness. 
    As a Libertarian, I don't care if you go to hell or not.    :coffee

    George,
    Thank you. I could have said the same thing, but it would not have had the same effect, so I chose to say nothing. I did find his comment offensive.
    I'll shut up and move along.


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    Kaso

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #34 on: February 02, 2017, 12:03:25 PM »
    I think a big part of keeping a civil atmosphere is not being quick to get upset - letting things roll off our backs.  Being offended is not a strong point of character, but the way you let it go and didn't make a fuss was. :thumbup1

    People will always say things to get under our skin.  How we handle them is what makes us.  Adversity is the true test of character.


    I agree that a certain level of respect is required, and that is what this is about - respect - but I really didn't think that was all that bad of an insult. Certainly, much worse has been said by others in the past.  :shrug
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    Grant

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #35 on: February 02, 2017, 02:12:24 PM »
       I personally wasn't bothered by Plebians comment.   I'm not southern Baptist but I am betting I'm part of the special majic sauce he refers to  ;)     That said, I know Plebian from being here long enough I don't believe it was intended as a "bad" insult.   More along the line of redneck jokes being told to people like me  :cool
     
        Still, makes me glad I'm here.  On ANY other forum that woulda devolved into a 4 page screaming match.
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #36 on: February 02, 2017, 02:23:59 PM »
    I didn't mean anything disrespectful at all. It was just poking fun as I stated.

    I didn't mean for anyone to get their magical underwear in a twist.  ;)
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #37 on: February 02, 2017, 03:04:06 PM »
    I didn't mean for anyone to get their magical underwear in a twist.  ;)
    Oh, great.  ::)  Just what we needed to buy this subject. :facepalm

     :neener


    As I said above, respect is important, but equally so is not taking yourself too seriously.  Understanding the difference between jabs made in fun, and those with ill intent.
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    BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #38 on: February 02, 2017, 04:14:36 PM »
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #39 on: February 02, 2017, 04:52:50 PM »
    Hey...a twist in your magic underwear is nothing to joke about.  I have some important stuff in there. ;)
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #40 on: February 02, 2017, 11:54:37 PM »
    so if a boy's choice to be surrounded by perverts or conservative religionists; you'd prefer the perverts?
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #41 on: February 03, 2017, 02:30:20 AM »
    so if a boy's choice to be surrounded by perverts or conservative religionists; you'd prefer the perverts?

    My personal experience has never shown that being around conservative religionists excluded being around perverts. There tended to be just as many perverts in every group no matter the religiosity of the individuals in the group.
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #42 on: February 03, 2017, 10:01:51 AM »
    My personal experience has never shown that being around conservative religionists excluded being around perverts. There tended to be just as many perverts in every group no matter the religiosity of the individuals in the group.
    I am going to agree, more or less, that 'perverts' are a part of every group. 

    So that said, since we have beaten the BSA issue to death, I want to go on a rabbit trail:  Who decides what constitutes a pervert?  Whose arbitrary definition do we use, of what behavior is outside of 'acceptable norms?'  We used to use Christian morals as the guiding compass, (whether people followed them or not) but obviously not anymore.  So the gays are considered 'normal' now, and arguments have been made that trannies are as well...  Why not polygamists? Why not incestual relationships?  Heck, why not pedophiles? (Not pedophiliac behavior, but the pedophiles themselves, and the natural impulses that drive them to feel that attraction?)

    Why are all of those groups not considered mainstream, but gays and trannies are?  Should they be, or not be?  I am wanting to hear honest arguments to support why or why not.  Out of respect, please avoid the LDS/polygamy issue.  It will not add useful content to the discussion.
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #43 on: February 03, 2017, 10:38:38 AM »
    As far as I'm concerned, as long as we're talking consenting adults, it's none of my business (and yes, this includes the LDS/polygamy issue).

    Incest is a whooole separate issue, as we're talking genetic reinforcement & medical issues...

    Chief45

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #44 on: February 03, 2017, 10:48:58 AM »
    How about we start with something a bit simpler.  To be a Scout, you are expected to learn, know and live by the following.

    The Scout Oath. On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

    Boy Scout Law: A Scout is:  Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean and Reverent.

    Boy Scout Motto: Be Prepared!

    Boy Scout Slogan: Do a Good Turn Daily!

    The Outdoor Code:  As an American, I will do my best to - Be clean in my outdoor manners. Be careful with fire. Be considerate in the outdoors, and Be conservation minded.


    If you cannot, or will not, abide by these standards, then no one is forcing you to.  No one is requiring you to join or participate in the scouting program. This is not the Hitler Youth or the USSR Young Pioneers.

    If you cannot, or will not,  why would you try to force yourself in ?

    If you are willing to and do your best to live by our codes, we are willing to have you be a part of us.  But it's rather like the old joke about the marriage vows.   the only acceptable answer is I Do,  not yes, no, yes, no, no, yes, maybe.

    When you swear your oath for a branch of service,  it's not a pick and choose.  it's all or nothing.  If you choose nothing, fine, got no problem with that.  If you choose to swear the oath, then I expect you, and hold you, to the same standards I hold myself to.  I swore, I gave my word, I took the oath.   I will live by it and live up to it.

    so, all this previous discussion is actually a distraction.   

    The question boils down to simply this.  Can you live by the Scout Oath,  or not. 

    It is not will we modify or water down or change the Scout Oath and Scout promise to fit you.   








     




    I am going to agree, more or less, that 'perverts' are a part of every group. 

    So that said, since we have beaten the BSA issue to death, I want to go on a rabbit trail:  Who decides what constitutes a pervert?  Whose arbitrary definition do we use, of what behavior is outside of 'acceptable norms?'  We used to use Christian morals as the guiding compass, (whether people followed them or not) but obviously not anymore.  So the gays are considered 'normal' now, and arguments have been made that trannies are as well...  Why not polygamists? Why not incestual relationships?  Heck, why not pedophiles? (Not pedophiliac behavior, but the pedophiles themselves, and the natural impulses that drive them to feel that attraction?)

    Why are all of those groups not considered mainstream, but gays and trannies are?  Should they be, or not be?  I am wanting to hear honest arguments to support why or why not.  Out of respect, please avoid the LDS/polygamy issue.  It will not add useful content to the discussion.
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #45 on: February 03, 2017, 10:52:02 AM »
    so if a boy's choice to be surrounded by perverts or conservative religionists; you'd prefer the perverts?
    Let me put a spin on that and see how you feel.


    Would you rather your child have an openly gay scoutmaster, or would you rather he have an ISIS supporting Muslim fundamentalist scoutmaster?


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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #46 on: February 03, 2017, 11:15:38 AM »
    As far as I'm concerned, as long as we're talking consenting adults, it's none of my business (and yes, this includes the LDS/polygamy issue).

    Incest is a whooole separate issue, as we're talking genetic reinforcement & medical issues...
    You really didn't answer the root questions of how we come up with these social norms, but I will answer you anyway.

     Consenting Adults...  How did we decide that the day someone turns 18, they are magically made competent to make their own decisions?  Most 18 year olds I have met should probably have an extra five years of parental supervision.  Some are responsible at 18, but most are not.  So why 18?  But let's go the other way...  How do we arbitrarily pick the age of consent, (which in most places is less than the age of majority) at which time a person can consent to certain adult behaviors, but not others?

    Going over to incest, why do we not keep to the argument of 'consenting adults?'  There is the issue of inbreeding, but do we not now have access to all manner of contraceptives, up to and including voluntarily sterilization?  And if that fails, socially accepted pregnancy terminations?  So why is it still considered perversion?

    Note, I am not in favor of any of those behaviors, but I do find the question worthwhile.  Subjectively, I find the idea of an inbred child a whole lot less ridiculous than the way some parents 'encourage' their seven year old's fantasy that he is the opposite gender.


    The question boils down to simply this.  Can you live by the Scout Oath,  or not. 

    It is not will we modify or water down or change the Scout Oath and Scout promise to fit you.   
    I agree. To clarify, my last post had nothing to do with scouting, instead society as a whole.
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #47 on: February 03, 2017, 11:25:38 AM »
    Let me put a spin on that and see how you feel.

    Would you rather your child have an openly gay scoutmaster, or would you rather he have an ISIS supporting Muslim fundamentalist scoutmaster?
    That is not the best example, because a middle eastern isis supporting male likely has an appetite for boys anyway.  A WBC member might be a better example.  Though, a choice between a WBC and a gay scoutmaster would be a tough one.
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #48 on: February 03, 2017, 11:31:54 AM »


    The question boils down to simply this.  Can you live by the Scout Oath,  or not. 

    It is not will we modify or water down or change the Scout Oath and Scout promise to fit you.
    Apparently the answer is to cave and say,"yes",  :facepalm

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #49 on: February 03, 2017, 11:44:12 AM »
    As a matter of personal opinion, I am less concerned about allowing gay and transgender boys or openly gay leaders into the scouts than I am about predatory leaders who get away with felonious sexual behaviors because there is an incorrect assumption.

    My children know how to deal with inappropriate behavior from a peer, and I am confident in there ability to defend their standards and person from another child.  And if a leader is open about their sexual orientation, then I have the opportunity to have a dialog with both them and my child to establish appropriate boundaries.  Boundaries which my child will feel empowered to enforce.

    I hope my children are able to deal with inappropriate behavior from a predatory leader, but I acknowledge the reality that resisting the pressure from an authority figure is more problematic if they are violating boundaries that have not been clearly discussed.
    Utah

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