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Author Topic: BSA goes transgender  (Read 3779 times)

RMc

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BSA goes transgender
« on: January 31, 2017, 11:49:00 AM »



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    Kaso

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #1 on: January 31, 2017, 12:35:00 PM »
    Notice how he keeps referring to the 'youth,' rather than the 'boys,' or 'young men.'  He knows the difference, but he is too weak to stand up for what is right.  If I was this executive, I would resign in protest before letting this perversion happen on my watch.


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    MTK20

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #2 on: January 31, 2017, 12:40:59 PM »
    This is egregious.

    One of the few things I regret is quitting scouts before eagle.

    Science says there are two genders. That's it. If you want to do any good for America, then open it up to let girls in. I say this because girl scouts is a joke. They do arts and crafts and sell cookies (so my female friends have told me). The purpose of boy scouts, in addition to building character, is to nurture self reliance, grit, and instill the values of scouting. I chalk it up to being part of old think, homeland security- that if we ever had an invading force, our youth would already have the independent skills, through marksmanship, camping, and woodsman skills that they could also support whatever war effort may come. I think of it as a pre military transition stage, sure they may be little ones now, but soon they'll be patriotic war fighters, enlisting at 18. Now that we have women also joining the ranks of military and LEO (regardless of what some's opinion may be on that fact), I say we open up scouts to them to get that same skill base and values instilled in them.

    Please don't screw up scouts, you virtue signaling jerks.

    /rant
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    LowKey

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #3 on: January 31, 2017, 01:18:49 PM »
    If your kids are in BSA, pull them out.
    Someone needs to start an alternative organization, and I second the idea put forth by MTK20 that it be open to both genders.   

    Why a new organization if it will take both genders? Because it won't have caved to SJW garbage.
    Let it take boys and girls, straight and gay, but acknowledge them as what they are. Not some BS attempt to call day night.



    Kaso

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #4 on: January 31, 2017, 01:24:17 PM »
    Please don't screw up scouts, you virtue signaling jerks.
    Too late. :-\
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
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    MTK20

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #5 on: January 31, 2017, 01:27:47 PM »
    If your kids are in BSA, pull them out.
    Someone needs to start an alternative organization, and I second the idea put forth by MTK20 that it be open to both genders.   

    Why a new organization if it will take both genders? Because it won't have caved to SJW garbage.
    Let it take boys and girls, straight and gay, but acknowledge them as what they are. Not some BS attempt to call day night.

    100% agree with your comment, regarding the new organisation and its parameters. White, black, gay, straight, boy, or girl- Your job in the scouts is to become a respectable, high functioning, and patriotic adult. The scouts should not be intolerant, but it should also not deny obvious fact and science.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Grant

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #6 on: January 31, 2017, 02:04:45 PM »
      Agreed with MTK and lowkey's alternatives.   I know a number of girl scouts who hate the association because it doesn't fit with what many girls do.  I know a local troop was doing "unofficial official" stuff along the lines of boyscouts, camping, woodscraft, bows,etc.

        The BSA is nothing but a political social justice tool at this point. 

    Then again I'm a hard-right, racist, bigot who wants all women barefoot and pregnant and supports throwing gays off rooftops  ::)   
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    Kaso

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #7 on: January 31, 2017, 03:28:37 PM »
    Then again I'm a hard-right, racist, bigot who wants all women barefoot and pregnant and supports throwing gays off rooftops.  ::)   
    No longer out of helicopters?  Oh dear, Grant is going soft. :-\
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    Plebian

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #8 on: January 31, 2017, 07:15:02 PM »
    Science says there are two genders. That's it.

    There is no need to bring science into a social discussion at all. Science is just going to muddy the waters as far as gender goes.

    If you are going to a science discussion on gender then you will have to reconcile the genotype not presenting as phenotype disparity. You have various genetic anomalies like XY female, XX male, XYY male/female etc etc. You also have the issue of ambiguous genitalia that presents itself at birth, and the child typically is just sorta assigned a gender.

    I would hope as a nurse you at least have some understanding of the various genetic anomalies that can occur.   
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    MTK20

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #9 on: January 31, 2017, 07:40:07 PM »
    There is no need to bring science into a social discussion at all. Science is just going to muddy the waters as far as gender goes.

    If you are going to a science discussion on gender then you will have to reconcile the genotype not presenting as phenotype disparity. You have various genetic anomalies like XY female, XX male, XYY male/female etc etc. You also have the issue of ambiguous genitalia that presents itself at birth, and the child typically is just sorta assigned a gender.

    I would hope as a nurse you at least have some understanding of the various genetic anomalies that can occur.

    Yes, while we don't study extensively in genetics, that is part of where my scientific base is coming from. Any time we have a statistical deviancy from normalcy or homeostasis, then that is outside "the norm" it is outside of what is healthy. I do not reject the deviancy from existing, rather I reject it as being normal. With transgenders we are trying to normalise disease. There is a percentage of the population that is born with fewer limbs and appendages then what is normal as well. And if society started clamouring to justify it as the "new normal" then I would speak against it as well. But unlike those afflicted with physical injury, transgenders are afflicted with mental disease, we are promoting and reinforcing the very thought process that is making them sick. One of the basic teachings that they gave me in psychiatric mental health nursing is that while you acknowledge that the mentally ill is certainly feeling/perceiving what they say they are at that moment, you never tell them that you also are experiencing/seeing their delusion. It hurts the patient and is an injustice to them. My stance on this issue is congruent with my medical teachings and it is one based in compassion for those who are afflicted, it is not because they "act different" then the rest of us.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Grant

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #10 on: January 31, 2017, 09:24:54 PM »
    No longer out of helicopters?  Oh dear, Grant is going soft. :-\

    No alternative.  Helicopter rental place quite giving me rides any after the last couple of rotor incidents.

     
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    Plebian

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #11 on: January 31, 2017, 10:01:22 PM »
    Aimed toward MTK20 here.

    My main point is the disparity between genotype and phenotype presentation.

    If a person is born an XY female. They present with typical female characteristics for phenotype, but they are genetically a male. Is this person male or female?

    The only logical way to answer without presenting serious hypocrisy is to say they are male because of the genotype. If you say they are female. Then you are assuming someone's gender based on outside appearance. Which can easily be changed.

    If you stick with this hardline genotype sorting. You run into serious issues with the true oddballs like XXY, XYY and the mutations of X presenting and functioning as Y genetically.

    You also seem to be associating 'the norm' as a measure of health. Which is a poor measure of health of any individual. My entire family is well outside of the normal curve of height, bone density and muscle density. Yet most of my family have great health records and live well into their 90s.

    This measure of 'the norm' doesn't hold up under societal scrutiny either. There are third genders in multiple societies functioning just fine in the modern world and far back into prehistory. The Thia and Indians are two of the modern societies that function in a healthy way with 3 genders.

    I think what you are really lashing out against is folks wishing to have a disordered society. Which I would completely agree with you. The only thing those 'odd' societies have is order even with 3 genders. There is no 'I am a dragonkin' horse hockey. They just plop people into 3 slots instead of 2 like we do. A society needs order or it hampers efficient communication and function.

    Deviancy is also perfectly 'normal'. You need both genetic and social deviants to evolve. Any revolutionary individual is inherently a social deviant as the individual wishes to go against the social norms.

    The biggest positive I could see for having a third gender as 'normal' in our society is dealing with those statistical anomalies in a more healthy way. We would not have doctors deciding an ambiguous genitalia individual's gender on the spot at birth with some serious side effects for the individual. They could just slap the child in the 'other' category and let the family work it out at a later point.       
    « Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 10:15:03 PM by Plebian »
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    MTK20

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #12 on: January 31, 2017, 10:22:51 PM »
    'The norm' is the phrase that I was using as in "within normal limits". Which is completely a measure of health and medically sound, unless every healthcare professional who has ever written "WNL" on a medical chart is suddenly 'doing it wrong'  ::).

    I'm not lashing out against anything, I made my case. Short of me citing medical textbooks to you (which I neither have the time nor inclination to do), there is nothing more to say here.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Grognard

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #13 on: February 01, 2017, 12:23:19 AM »
    someone asked for a alternative to the BSA?


    ask. and it shall be given.


    https://www.traillifeusa.com/


    borrowed direct from their site:
    VISION
    Our vision is to be the premier national character development organization for young men which produces Godly and responsible husbands, fathers, and citizens.

    MISSION
    Our mission is simple and clear: to guide generations of courageous young men to honor God, lead with integrity, serve others, and experience outdoor adventure.

    MOTTO
    “Walk Worthy”
    Colossians 1:10  “… that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;…”
    Virginia“We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.” -Aristotle

    coelacanth

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #14 on: February 01, 2017, 12:51:44 AM »
    Cool.   :thumbup1   

    As far as the scientific discussion goes, I get the fact that a genotype may not necessarily express itself in a phenotype but that phenomenon is  not at all common in the human population.  I don't have any statistical data on hand at the moment but I imagine it is a fraction of a percent of the total.   Genetic anomalies and defects have been with us since the beginning and will continue to be into the foreseeable future but attempting to legislatively control 99% of the population's behavior in an attempt to placate the other 1% is just stupid. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    Plebian

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #15 on: February 01, 2017, 03:31:36 AM »
    someone asked for a alternative to the BSA?


    ask. and it shall be given.


    https://www.traillifeusa.com/


    borrowed direct from their site:
    VISION
    Our vision is to be the premier national character development organization for young men which produces Godly and responsible husbands, fathers, and citizens.

    MISSION
    Our mission is simple and clear: to guide generations of courageous young men to honor God, lead with integrity, serve others, and experience outdoor adventure.

    MOTTO
    “Walk Worthy”
    Colossians 1:10  “… that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;…”

    You are going to lose a ton of folks with the Christian aspect of the group. There are a ton of folks that do not wish for there children to be involved in something overtly religious. Even if the parents are Christian themselves.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    RetroGrouch

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #16 on: February 01, 2017, 03:41:36 AM »
    Uhh, the Boy Scouts are (or were) Christian, and sponsored by churches, at least when my son was in the cub scouts years ago.

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    Plebian

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #17 on: February 01, 2017, 06:18:12 AM »
    Uhh, the Boy Scouts are (or were) Christian, and sponsored by churches, at least when my son was in the cub scouts years ago.

    Yeah. The local Scout troop was highly Christian in the horrible southern baptist way. Which is likely why it only had 3 kids in it.

    There was another local group that was called Pathfinders. It was just a local non-christian scout group. I was in it and about 20 other kids. It fit a bit better in Oklahoma because of the large native population.

    I do not know the differences as I never participated in the Boy Scouts. We just mostly learned how to not die, some shooting, leatherworking, trapping, skinning, basic electrical, land nav etc etc. It was just a basic 'how to be a human' IMO.   
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    lesptr

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    BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #18 on: February 01, 2017, 07:06:01 AM »
    Can you explain what "horrible southern baptist way" means to this southern baptist?


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    Kaso

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #19 on: February 01, 2017, 08:30:22 AM »
    Can you explain what "horrible southern baptist way" means to this southern baptist?
    Probably the way some 'evangelical' and similar churches saturate every facet of their lives with 'the Bible,' and every single thing taught about... Everything... has some sort of reference to God.  For instance, the scout motto? Something to do with God.  The Uniform?  God.  The square knot...  See where this is going? 

    I am not opposed to finding spiritual meaning in minor things, (I do it myself, maybe more than most do) but those who do not want that are often adverse to those who push it in everyone's faces.

    Maybe Plebian meant something else, so he can answer.  This is one of those topics where the subject of religious involvement is bound to come up.  I know that WTA will handle that better than some other places. ;)
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    lesptr

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #20 on: February 01, 2017, 08:41:52 AM »
    I know that WTA will handle that better than some other places. ;)

    Which is one of the reasons I hang around.


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    LowKey

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #21 on: February 01, 2017, 08:47:09 AM »
    That "Alternative Group" isn't gong to work out well for agnostics, atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs, Animists, or any other non-Christian faith.
    It's also going to be problematic for Christians of any other denomination other than the denomination running the organization.


    A viable alternative would not have religion as a central facet.   
    Morality and ethics, absolutely.   
    The alternative shown above is more of a church group with outdoor activities than a BSA analogue.

    sqlbullet

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #22 on: February 01, 2017, 10:14:38 AM »
    First thing I thought when I read about trail life usa requiring sponsoring organizations to be christian was who defines "Christian".

    During my youth and early adulthood most protestant religious groups excluded The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints from the category of "christian" organizations.

    So, who gets to decide which organizations are Christ-believing enough?

    That said, I guess I don't get too wound up over this change.  Doesn't alter the quality of the learning my boys get from the organization.  From a Geo political standpoint I would rather them have just said two years back that they now accept all youth 11-18 as boy scouts, rather than head down this path.  I agree that this gentle "cave-in" is very damaging to the organization.  Better for them to tear the band-aid off rather than this slow, multi-year pull.
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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #23 on: February 01, 2017, 10:28:25 AM »
    a 12 year old made this decision ?    really ?   a 12 year old.


    yeah, yeah, I know,  I'm just a cynical old cop.    who has been involved with scouting for years and has taken the BSA youth protection training multiple times.   The entire goal is to protect the kids.  The goal of scouting is to prepare them for life.  our motto has long been "be prepared".  prepared for what ?  for any thing.

    There are somewhere between 25 and 40 Million boy scouts in the world,  and 500 million alumni since scouting started in 1908 in England.

    The fractional, minuscule, percentage of a percentage of a percentage that this represents, well,  we'll see what happens.  The only reason anyone is even hearing about this is someone want's the publicity.  someone wants to push.  This is not about a child,  this is about an agenda.   and that is my entire reason for being upset over this.   It's someone's political agenda and it is using a child as the focal point of their agenda.



    side note, the Southern Baptist youth scouting group, back in my day, was called Royal Ambassadors.  Large parts were lifted wholesale from the scout handbook after the serial numbers had been filed off and a new coat of paint slapped on, with a heavy emphasis on SBC theology and a strong underlying that the RA's were the good saved kids and BSA was a secretly satanic worshiping secular group that if you joined them, you were doomed to hell and your parents were failures and held up as shameful examples to the congregation.

    Funny thing about that.   Everyone knows the Boy Scouts.  no one ever heard of RA's outside of the church.




     

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    Grant

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    Re: BSA goes transgender
    « Reply #24 on: February 01, 2017, 12:20:35 PM »
    The fractional, minuscule, percentage of a percentage of a percentage that this represents, well,  we'll see what happens.  The only reason anyone is even hearing about this is someone want's the publicity.  someone wants to push. This is not about a child,  this is about an agenda.   and that is my entire reason for being upset over this.   It's someone's political agenda and it is using a child as the focal point of their agenda.

    That is MY biggest gripe with the whole LGBT movement.    I'm indifferent. I really could care less on 99% of the stuff.  I now fight against almost anything pushed because of the way and reasons they are going about fighting for "progress".
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

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