Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: Force on Force Training  (Read 723 times)

StevenTing

  • WTA Staff
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 4650

  • Offline
Force on Force Training
« on: January 26, 2017, 02:35:53 AM »
This course is put on by a local company.  $1500 over 3 days.  After watching this video, I want to take the course.  I know I will get my butt handed to me but I don't know if I'll ever have this type of training.  Shooting paper is easy.  But when someone is coming at you and doesn't stop, what do you do.

It's worth the 15 minutes to watch.


http://www.carbontv.com/shows/beyond-breaking/episodes/1/?component=recent-episodes
Utah

WeTheArmed.com

  • Advertisement
  • ***

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 21829
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #1 on: January 26, 2017, 09:51:39 AM »
    1500 dollars is a lot of money for a Force on Force class.  And 3 days in a row of that is pretty dang brutal. 
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    ZeroTA

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2876
    • Minister of Random Punishments

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #2 on: January 26, 2017, 10:52:33 AM »
    Yeah...I'm sure it's a good class (better be for $1500) but Suarez was $400 for two days, and a local guy (Mark Owensby, retired cop and Bianchi Cup shooter) has a one day class for $100.
    I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

    StevenTing

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4650

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #3 on: January 26, 2017, 11:28:15 AM »
    Yeah...I'm sure it's a good class (better be for $1500) but Suarez was $400 for two days, and a local guy (Mark Owensby, retired cop and Bianchi Cup shooter) has a one day class for $100.


    Yea, but does Suarez beat the crap out of you?  :neener
    I'm guessing that for $1500, they keep the class to a pretty small size. I'm guessing that's the biggest reason for the cost.  I can't imagine doing a FOF class with like 10 people.  You'd want to keep it small an intimate, however the course description says 4-1 Student/Instructor Ratio, which I would think is too high.

    I'm assuming it's this course.   
    https://deliberatedynamics.com/shop/training/deliberate-dynamics-gunfighter/

    Based on the course description, I wouldn't pay $1500.  But after watching the video I would.
    Utah

    MTK20

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5157
    • Mind of a philosopher, mouth of a sailor.

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #4 on: January 26, 2017, 12:27:09 PM »

    Yea, but does Suarez beat the crap out of you?  :neener
    I'm guessing that for $1500, they keep the class to a pretty small size. I'm guessing that's the biggest reason for the cost.  I can't imagine doing a FOF class with like 10 people.  You'd want to keep it small an intimate, however the course description says 4-1 Student/Instructor Ratio, which I would think is too high.

    I'm assuming it's this course.   
    https://deliberatedynamics.com/shop/training/deliberate-dynamics-gunfighter/

    Based on the course description, I wouldn't pay $1500.  But after watching the video I would.

     :rotfl

    It just ain't worth the money, unless a professionally trained tacti-beard is wailing on you.

    ETA: After watching the video, man that looks like a good course! I'm not sure I could justify the money spent, but the training looks very good. You'll have to give us a write up after your bruises heal  ;).
    « Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 02:25:25 PM by MTK20 »
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    luke213(adamsholsters)

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 3151
      • Adams Holsters

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #5 on: January 26, 2017, 07:12:57 PM »
    I like the idea however my own 2 cents;) Near the end when the guy comes in the window of the car and she starts shooting, she got a good 4-5 rounds into chest, head and basically I'd be astounded if the guy was still in the fight afterwards;)

    So looks interesting but I think there are times when those shots would indeed solve the problem and can't with sim rounds, so it's a give and take.

    Luke
    MichiganI am the owner/proprietor of www.adamsholsters.com Custom holsters made for you. To contact me please use E-mail rather than Private Messages, luke@adamsholsters.com

    MTK20

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5157
    • Mind of a philosopher, mouth of a sailor.

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #6 on: January 26, 2017, 07:38:52 PM »
    I like the idea however my own 2 cents;) Near the end when the guy comes in the window of the car and she starts shooting, she got a good 4-5 rounds into chest, head and basically I'd be astounded if the guy was still in the fight afterwards;)

    So looks interesting but I think there are times when those shots would indeed solve the problem and can't with sim rounds, so it's a give and take.

    Luke

    Agreed, She completely stopped the threat at that part. I would've loved to see the actor go limp, half inside and half outside the vehicle, then for her to give the door a kick and put the car between herself and BG number 2. If alpha commands for verbal compliance didn't work, then she could take action to physically stop the threat.

    I know this is a commercial, but to watch one of the cake eating civilians completely own a round against the Op-For would still make a good advertisement, IMHO.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    StevenTing

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4650

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #7 on: January 26, 2017, 08:39:21 PM »
    It's part commercial and part advertisement for CarbonTV.  I applied to be one of those people in the training but apparently my life isn't interesting enough.  This Group, Deliberate Dynamics, does a good job with their training.  They run the training program for Desert Tech.

    I'll ask them "Why $1500?" When all of their other courses are around $700 a piece.  With the physical contact, I'm sure there's more liability involved.  It's a training course where you're guaranteed to get the crap beat out of you.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Utah

    MTK20

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5157
    • Mind of a philosopher, mouth of a sailor.

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #8 on: January 26, 2017, 09:16:32 PM »
    It's part commercial and part advertisement for CarbonTV.  I applied to be one of those people in the training but apparently my life isn't interesting enough.  This Group, Deliberate Dynamics, does a good job with their training.  They run the training program for Desert Tech.

    I'll ask them "Why $1500?" When all of their other courses are around $700 a piece.  With the physical contact, I'm sure there's more liability involved.  It's a training course where you're guaranteed to get the crap beat out of you.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

    Surely their liability doesn't cost that much though  :scrutiny
    I think it's a good question to ask and I'm curious as to its answer.

    I'm also quite excited for you. Be safe, have fun- do your best John Wick impersonation, and drop some 'boes on some clowns before they getcha  :neener. I mean, I'm sure they'll let you hit back  :cool.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    ZeroTA

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2876
    • Minister of Random Punishments

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #9 on: January 26, 2017, 11:32:14 PM »

    Yea, but does Suarez beat the crap out of you?  :neener


    No, that's other classes.  :cool  >:D Depending on who shows up, it's as rough as you want it to be.

    I'm glad to see FOF getting "mainstream". There's only so much you can learn from reading forums and even shooting matches. Haven't shot one in a while, they'll make you a better shooter but not a smarter fighter. Try to shoot somebody who's whaling on you, that'll learn ya right quick about what does and doesn't work.
    I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

    StevenTing

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4650

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #10 on: January 27, 2017, 10:47:33 AM »
    I like the idea however my own 2 cents;) Near the end when the guy comes in the window of the car and she starts shooting, she got a good 4-5 rounds into chest, head and basically I'd be astounded if the guy was still in the fight afterwards;)

    So looks interesting but I think there are times when those shots would indeed solve the problem and can't with sim rounds, so it's a give and take.

    Luke

    I asked them about this. And while there was a shot to the head, that doesn't guarantee that your threat will stop.  If you watch closely, she also shoots her own leg.  The idea behind the exercise is to never give up and to not stop.  We've all heard the stories of the bad guy that just won't go down for one reason or another.  You may think you  have enough to put them down but what happens when they're on you.

    I like what they're trying to get across here.  They're trying to push you beyond your limits so you know how you will react.  We can practice all we want.  We can shoot IDPA and 3 gun, but the dynamics change when someone is overpowering you.

    When speaking with them, they say this is more than just a force on force course.  By watching the video, I know that but somehow they need to explain it better.

    I did ask about the cost and it is what it is.  They provide all UTM ammo and frang ammo that is used in the course and I understand that can get expensive quickly.  It's not just like a 4 hour class each day.  The hours are long with some down time so maybe that justifies the cost.

    And, because I asked, they offered to let me and some friends take the class at a substantial discount.  My guess is they want to generate more word of mouth.  So now I'm trying to find some people to take the class with me.  Who want's to do this with me?
    Utah

    luke213(adamsholsters)

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 3151
      • Adams Holsters

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #11 on: January 27, 2017, 10:51:27 AM »
    Ha if I were closer I'd do it;)

    I feel ya on the shots not stopping I did notice her shoot herself there too, I chalked it up as bad but it could happen;) I knew that was the reason more less pushing beyond what should stop for the training purposes, I'd just love to see a means to do both. I guess to give some positive feedback to good hits while still pushing the limit otherwise.

    But that said it's really always a restriction of technology available, and I can pretty much guarantee that some of those shots at close range even are hard to tell if you're hit or not in the heat of the moment with adrenaline running with any type of sim round available;)

    Yeah if I were closer I'd give it a go;)

    Luke
    MichiganI am the owner/proprietor of www.adamsholsters.com Custom holsters made for you. To contact me please use E-mail rather than Private Messages, luke@adamsholsters.com

    MTK20

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5157
    • Mind of a philosopher, mouth of a sailor.

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #12 on: January 27, 2017, 11:09:13 AM »
    If I were closer, I'd love to give it a go.

    My body would hate me though. That looks like a biathlon event to me: one part running, the other part boxing.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    StevenTing

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4650

    • Offline
    Re: Force on Force Training
    « Reply #13 on: January 27, 2017, 11:16:45 AM »
    If I were closer, I'd love to give it a go.

    My body would hate me though. That looks like a biathlon event to me: one part running, the other part boxing.

    I've contemplated taking my wife to this.  They say they get all fitness levels but even still, I know I'm going to end up sore and bruised, even with the padding.
    Utah

    Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.