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Author Topic: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun  (Read 6322 times)

cubdad

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Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« on: April 24, 2010, 06:42:42 PM »
So the chinese have been building up their navy. Sometime about last September they started patrolling for pirates off somalia.  Lots of news stories about this. The Chinese have been very free about showing pictures of their navy special forces.  Odd. Anyway, what caught my eye was the long gun they were fielding.  Some sort of bullpup rifle, high carry handle, giant front sight, 3 point sling, every now and then you see one with a grenade launcher attached. Can anyone tell me what it is?

Here are links to news stories with pictures of the rifle, you may need to scroll down the story to see the rifle:

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-12/25/content_10559690.htm

http://www.moun.com/articles.asp?art=12267

http://en.youth.cn/news/china/200907/t20090716_954208.htm

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/showimage/7246.htm



 


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Stryker

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2010, 06:57:06 PM »
Interesting, I didn't expect the Chinese to be the ones to step up and do something about the piracy problem.   :hmm

The guns are Type 95's.

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as39-e.htm
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cubdad

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2010, 07:24:27 PM »
Thanks.  I thought that they were still running around with SKSs.  Wikipedia makes this rifle and its 5.8 mm round look good on paper, though it does point out it has not seen combat.  I have to admit I am a little annoyed that the Chinese have a newer and maybe better rifle than the US army.  Well...giving in to my petty side: I see that the charging handle seems to be on the right side of the rifle. That'll make it a little slower to operate.....

I've never fired a bullpup.  So unless it blows out your right ear drum, getting a rifle with both an inch or two extra barrel and an inch or two overall shorter seems a great deal....

Still annoyed....

Bud

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2010, 07:47:46 PM »
I quickly threw this in depth video briefing together for you:



okay, somebody else actually did it but I found it.
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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2010, 07:58:00 PM »
From what I have heard the rifle isn't all it is cracked up to be. The plastic isn't as durable as the designers had hoped.
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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2010, 08:31:17 PM »
Interesting, I didn't expect the Chinese to be the ones to step up and do something about the piracy problem.   :hmm


It makes perfect sense to me.  They don't mind using an iron fist, I would imagine.  While we're tiptoeing around issues of jurisdiction, international law, and appropriate court locations, they're probably over there rounding up every Somali on a boat, shooting them in the head, and dumping the bodies in the ocean... 

Note that I'm not commenting on the appropriateness of either approach... Just speculating as to theirs.
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seanp

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2010, 09:41:37 PM »
I have to admit I am a little annoyed that the Chinese have a newer and maybe better rifle than the US army.

Newer, yes.  Better... mmm not so much.

The rifle is available commercially as the Type 97 in 5.56.  Aside from the fact that it is a bullpup, reviews seem indifferent.  I have one on order but the RCMP and CBSA seem determined to block it's import.  From what I have heard about the ones that actually made it into the country it is an unspectacular and not particularly innovative design.
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GeorgeHill

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2010, 10:01:06 PM »
The Type 95 is a solid weapon.
That's not what bothers me.  What bothers me is that they actually have a fielded and functional Landwarrior type system.


This gives me warm fuzzies.
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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2010, 10:05:06 PM »

That's not what bothers me.  What bothers me is that they actually have a fielded and functional Landwarrior type system.

Why does this worry you?  I think it is wonderful.  Their soldiers are so interconnected, it'll be wonderful to know that each and every soldier will know just how badly they are getting their asses kicked simultaneously.
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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2010, 10:06:21 PM »
Any info on that system, because from the pictures, it looks ridiculous.

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2010, 10:29:26 PM »
Yeah, I don't think you guys are quite getting the significance of this.  Their system works like ours does.  Simplified, lighter... and it actually works.  Ours?  Not so much.  More complicated, heavier, and faulty.
Underestimate the Chinese Military at great great risk.  Bravado and smack-talk might help you sleep at night, but the reality is that we need to consider them a true threat, and one that is on a equal footing as us, if not a foot ahead already.
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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2010, 11:35:04 PM »
Yeah, I don't think you guys are quite getting the significance of this.  Their system works like ours does.  Simplified, lighter... and it actually works.  Ours?  Not so much.  More complicated, heavier, and faulty.
Underestimate the Chinese Military at great great risk.  Bravado and smack-talk might help you sleep at night, but the reality is that we need to consider them a true threat, and one that is on a equal footing as us, if not a foot ahead already.

+1
Not to thread drift or anything, but...
Never, ever, underestimate your opponent. Old, but true. The times we underestimated the PLA and other "inferior" forces, we incurred losses and found out just how far they would go to save face. Talk to the guys who saw combat in Korea. My Chinese-American grand uncle served in the U.S. Army, and was a decorated combat vet there. The stuff he saw was unreal. Chinese wave attacks being one of them.

 The Chinese military have spent a ton of money on their personnel and technology over the years, more so in the past ten to fifteen. Some of the stuff they've come out with, whether it's original, "inspired", or reversed engineered has been pretty surprising. For instance, Chinese submarines and their missile technology is no joke anymore and they currently hold the title in "Cyber Warfare" among other things. They have a lot of expertise in design and tech, the people to implement it, and the fabrication facilities to bring them to fruition. We on the other hand, have p___ed away a lot of those assets and reduced the talent pool that possesses the know how. Big business did not help matters.
 We need to stop focusing so heavily on sports programs in hopes of creating an NFL/NBA/MLB superstar athlete. Math, the sciences, and many more areas in education desperately need a boost here in the states. We are falling behind, and that is a fact. Most of our kids go to school maybe five times a week with a lot of vacation time thrown in there. In many other parts of the world, it's much more with short breaks or a day off now and then.
However, we're not helpless, are still strong, and have a Good 'ol American can do attitude. She's still there, we just need to stop by more often and say hello.  

GeorgeHill

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2010, 12:13:05 AM »
We've WarGamed the Chinese Sub scenarios... the results are scary.  In Coastal Waters, these Diesel Boats are serious and insanely hard to track.  Norway has some that we played with/against.  Yeah, I'm not going to dismiss those just because they are not Nuke Boats.  One of those things, running on batteries... super quiet.  More so than most of our own boats.

http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/China_special_report.htm
I wrote that years ago - and it's still very much valid if not old news now.
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kunkmiester

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2010, 12:39:20 AM »
Isn't it one of the old sayings?  "Never get involved in a land war in Asia."  At least according to Vicini it is.
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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2010, 03:18:53 AM »
^^^^  Nice.  :D


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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2010, 03:20:33 AM »
:lol:  Inconceivable.
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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2010, 03:27:40 AM »
Yeah, I don't think you guys are quite getting the significance of this.  Their system works like ours does.  Simplified, lighter... and it actually works.  Ours?  Not so much.  More complicated, heavier, and faulty.
Underestimate the Chinese Military at great great risk.  Bravado and smack-talk might help you sleep at night, but the reality is that we need to consider them a true threat, and one that is on a equal footing as us, if not a foot ahead already.

I'm of much less of a "tactical" mind than George, and even I was thinking that same thing.  I wasn't impressed, I was worried.

If the Chinese decided to make a strike, we'd have our work cut out for us.  They are a concern to say the least.


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seanp

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2010, 04:54:42 AM »
Seriously?  The PLA numbers about three million soldiers.  That's soldiers, armed with SKS, type 81s, or type 95s.  It does not include their support staff.  The time to worry about force on force with them in terms of small units was a decade and a half ago.  It's too late now.  Because even if they have only 1/10 the capability individually, they still have a numerical superiority of 15:1 in their home theater.  If they can extend that force, even in a marginal way, they have a more than ample advantage in numbers.  The only way to turn the tide now would be high end assets. Aircraft, missiles, etc...
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Grant

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2010, 08:08:42 AM »
  And they're doing it....That is pouring money into R&D areas and trying to make themselves the largest military power while also improving their technology base...

And meanwhile.....the US is  :facepalm 

Maybe I'm pessimistic.   

Anyway:  China's small arms have always interested me.  Their Type 81 AK lookalike always thought was very cool looking.  ;D
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percyshelley

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2010, 02:43:33 PM »
Tactical Gun Fan ran an article on the QBZ-95 a while back here:

http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=514&Itemid=70


Unfortunately, pictures of the revamped Type 95 haven't surfaced yet.  I've seen one or two of a version with a slightly revised handguard, but nothing that would suggest the sort of complete overhaul the article discusses.

The rifle itself is nothing special.  Gas operated, rotating bolt, feeds from a 30 round magazine; same basic specs as everyone else's weapons.  What caught my eye is the line about how they managed to develop, test and field this thing in 4 1/2 years.

4 1/2 years is similar to the SCAR and ACR development timelines, but those were fast-tracked SOCOM and private projects respectively.  The Type 95, as far as I can tell, was developed by the main PLA arms development authority.  How long was the OICW in testing?
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Feud

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2010, 02:55:11 PM »
 And they're doing it....That is pouring money into R&D areas and trying to make themselves the largest military power while also improving their technology base...

And meanwhile.....the US is

Pouring eight times the amount of money they are into our military.  Whether it's producing the results we need is one thing, but we're certainly putting enough money into R&D and our military technology base.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 03:22:16 PM by Feud »

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2010, 03:46:52 PM »
Quote
Pouring eight times the amount of money they are into our military.  Whether it's producing the results we need is one thing, but we're certainly putting enough money into R&D and our military technology base.


Half of the DOD budget is pay and benefits for the personnel.  So that doesn't count, really.  Our military is the best paid in the world.

Of the other half...our technology base?  I don't know about other areas, but our aerospace industrial base is headed for some hard times.  And the big budget cuts to fund health control haven't happened yet, but I'm certain they will.

The Chinese fought us to a standstill on the Korean Peninsula in 1952-53.  They're a hell of a lot closer to us technologically now than they were then.  Remember, probably half the world's electronics are manufactured in China.

The biggest limitation the Chinese military faces is mobility.  The People's Liberation Army Air Force lacks the airlift capability that the USAF or even the old Soviet Air Force had...as far as I know (lack of airlift is one of the things that really hampered the Soviets in Afghanistan).  (I will go way out on a limb and say this could be a by-product of tying their air force down to generals who were infantry or tank commanders.  Their Navy, the PLAN, is in a similar predicament.)

As for sealift capability, I've heard analysts who are paid a lot of money say they have none.  I just look at the Chinese industrial complex and wonder how many freighters full of Chinese goods are headed around the world every day; converting those for troop/equipment carriage would be a trivial task.

I'm not saying they could mount an invasion of the US or anything.  I am saying that if we were to go to war with China right now we might be shocked at how tough the fight is for us.  Right now, China is on about the same level on the world stage as the United States was in the 19th Century.  The US today is akin to the Great Britain of the 19th century.

I don't think that bodes especially well for us.  

On the other hand, I believe a war with China is entirely avoidable.  For now, anyway.

Anyway...as for the Type 95, I've heard improvements are underway.  One of the problems with it apparently was that the safety/selector switch was terribly located, and couldn't be reached without breaking the firing grip.  I read that the designers said this was a result of the limited R&D time they had.  They've also developed and fielded the Type 03 assualt rifle, a complimentary system in 5.8mm that's of conventional layout.

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Avenger29

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2010, 06:50:27 PM »
Quote
As for sealift capability, I've heard analysts who are paid a lot of money say they have none.  I just look at the Chinese industrial complex and wonder how many freighters full of Chinese goods are headed around the world every day; converting those for troop/equipment carriage would be a trivial task.

I'm sure you have red Red Storm Rising and that you are aware of the Falklands War and the converted cargo ships. 'Nuff said.


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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2010, 07:48:57 PM »
Do the Chinese use a numerical system similar to the Russians, as in "95" being an indicator that ti was designed/commissioned in 1995?

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Re: Chinese Navy Special forces Gun
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2010, 07:51:00 PM »
More pictures from the 'net.








Joint training with the Indian Army.





Quote
Do the Chinese use a numerical system similar to the Russians, as in "95" being an indicator that ti was designed/commissioned in 1995?


Yes, I believe so.
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