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Author Topic: buying ammo straight from factory  (Read 10263 times)

kunkmiester

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buying ammo straight from factory
« on: October 03, 2012, 12:44:52 AM »
Was half-seriously looking at this for a bulk group buy.  Got to wondering though, how much you'd have to buy from say, Winchester, before they'd look at it, and what they'd insist upon for a customer.  I was thinking of deliver-on-pallet size orders, so it shouldn't be too much trouble, but I was also thinking it might not save much on the bulk sellers online.
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GeorgeHill

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 12:57:17 AM »
http://www.freedommunitions.com/
Your best bet.  The main line factories are all back ordered pretty deep.
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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 01:05:52 AM »
It would definitely save. How do you think the bulk online sellers receive their product? By pallet from the manufacturer. Then they mark it up, charge shipping cost and ship to the customer.

You go to a retail store, like Walmart or Academy, they get it from the manufacturer by the pallet at their distribution centers. They break down the pallets, build new pallets with the right variety for each store, ship to the store, then the store sells to the customer. Their markup counts in shipping, processing, receiving, stocking, plus some profit.

You order a pallet or two straight to you, in theory you get dealer cost. The problem is will Federal, or Winchester or Remington be willing to ship a variety pallet? Or will you only get that pricing if you order a whole pallet of 165gr .40S&W FMJ? That, I don't know.

For the record, if we can do this, I prefer Federal. Especially if we're including primers.
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Precious Roy

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 06:15:05 AM »
I don't know about ammo manufacturers but I've found that some manufacturers of other products won't sell direct to you without a sales tax number even if you're willing to spend a good sized chunk of change with them.

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StevenTing

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buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 08:13:42 AM »
You may also need an FFL.  I don't know for sure.  Just guessing because you need am FFL to manufacture and sell your own ammo.  I assume its the same if you did a bulk order to resell.  Old be happy to be wrong. 
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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2012, 08:58:04 AM »
Getting a tax number isn't particularly hard, is it? I mean, you'd need to incorporate, but a lot of people do that anyway, for various reasons ...

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Coronach

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2012, 09:13:00 AM »
Practicing my double taps ...
« Last Edit: October 03, 2012, 01:22:55 PM by Coronach »
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ksuguy

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2012, 09:31:33 AM »
I remember hearing one of the smaller manufacturers interviewed on gun talk.  They will take direct orders if the quantity is enough.   Don't remember which one it was.   I'm thinking maybe Hornady or Double Tap.
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seanp

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2012, 01:16:34 PM »
Getting a tax number isn't particularly hard, is it? I mean, you'd need to incorporate, but a lot of people do that anyway, for various reasons ...

Shouldn't be tough.  I wouldn't think you would even have to incorporate.  In Canada it's pretty simple.  I got a personal one for self employment and all it took was a phone call.  Maintaining it and filling out the paperwork is a PITA, but really only takes a few minutes to an hour depending on how much work I do in a year.
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akodo

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2012, 05:04:37 PM »
Getting a tax number isn't particularly hard, is it? I mean, you'd need to incorporate, but a lot of people do that anyway, for various reasons ...

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Getting a tax number is not hard.

However there are a lot of hurdles any time anyone is buying directly from the manufacturer, be it ammo from Winchester or 32" TVs from Samsung or Iphone5s from apple.

Is a sales and procurement agent even going to return your call if you aren't a big business?  Do you have a computer system that is compatible with their ordering process?  What do you know about Bills of Lading, SCAC codes, ATR, Pro numbers? Does the factory work in LTLU quantities or do you have to buy a trailer-load at a time?  Do you have access to a shipping dock following CTPAT procedures with a ICC bar loading/unloading lock?

Fedex and UPS will agree to be your middle-man for a lot of that, but for a fee.

seanp

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2012, 05:34:31 PM »
Getting a tax number is not hard.

However there are a lot of hurdles any time anyone is buying directly from the manufacturer, be it ammo from Winchester or 32" TVs from Samsung or Iphone5s from apple.

Is a sales and procurement agent even going to return your call if you aren't a big business?  Do you have a computer system that is compatible with their ordering process?  What do you know about Bills of Lading, SCAC codes, ATR, Pro numbers? Does the factory work in LTLU quantities or do you have to buy a trailer-load at a time?  Do you have access to a shipping dock following CTPAT procedures with a ICC bar loading/unloading lock?

Fedex and UPS will agree to be your middle-man for a lot of that, but for a fee.

Mmm...  I've done a little of this kind of thing before, particularly co-ordinating group buys of firearms and ammunition.  A lot of that really doesn't apply to a small vendor who will be doing a one off purchase, or an annual purchase.  Moreover, it is pretty unlikely that you will make a cold call directly to company headquarters.  It would be wiser to give one of their regional distributors a call.  A regional distributor is more likely to be willing to talk to a small vendor/purchaser, talk you through the process, and make arrangements outside of the purchase and shipping procedures for big box stores.

The worst they can say is "no", and yeah that happens.  But the next distributor might say "yes".  There are a lot of very small, home/internet based firearms related businesses in Canada that have taken off over the last few years because they have been bold about approaching manufacturers that have traditionally avoided Canada as being too small of a market.
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Coronach

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2012, 05:36:38 PM »
Yeah, that was the next issue. Ammo is heavy, and even without onerous regs on shipping hazardous materials, moving a pallet of the stuff across country is not going to be cheap. Add in the byzantine rules and regs about shipping OMG EXPLOSIVES! and stuff gets spendy really quickly. Cue Fedex and UPS, and bring your wallet.

I'm still interested, but I'm not sure how cheap it will be.

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2012, 05:41:54 PM »
To become a Winchester distributor:
Quote
Write to:

Winchester Ammunition
Attn: Sales Dept.
427 N. Shamrock St
East Alton, IL 62024

http://www.winchester.com/learning-center/faqs/Miscellaneous/Pages/faq.aspx

For Federal/CCI/American Eagle:
Quote
If you can answer yes to all of the following questions, you may be qualified to be a Premium Partner dealer.

    1. My store is a full-time sporting goods retail outlet and I have allocated display space for seasonal promotions
    2. I buy a minimum of $15,000 in ATK brand merchandise per year.
    3. I'm committed to being a long-term partner for ATK—a mutually beneficial relationship that will help move product and create customer loyalty

http://premiumpartners.atk.com/dealer_info/registrationform.aspx
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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2012, 07:33:31 PM »
I can buy $15,000 in ATK brand merchadise...this year. Probably won't need to ever again. Definitely can't do it more than once.
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Kaso

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2012, 08:53:37 PM »
I can buy $15,000 in ATK brand merchadise...this year. Probably won't need to ever again. Definitely can't do it more than once.

It would be hard to use that much ammunition each year, even if you split it among several guys.  1000lb of 5.56 (as an example) would be 35-40k rounds.  At a bulk price, that ammo is probably going to be only half of the minimum order... maybe a little more than half.  Could we really split up 75k rounds per year?  (Okay, to be fair, it would not be all one caliber.  Other cartridges might cost double or more, so that would be less rounds.)



Okay, say we could get committments for it all...  who is going to keep everyone accountable?  That is to say, who makes sure that guys don't back out?  I just don't think this is viable... to become a dealer, that is.  A pallet... maybe.



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kunkmiester

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2012, 12:24:59 AM »
I work for a shipping company, I was shocked by what my supervisor told me could be gotten for discounts.  We get liquid tanks(2-3000 pounds filled) all the time for the refineries.  They'd be better off getting a tanker full of the stuff, but with the discounts we'd give, it was cheaper to ship the tote back and forth than rent the tanker which is counter intuitive until you consider absurd discounts on shipping rates.

I've gotten the impression that freight shipping isn't really that big of a deal--UPS advertises it in the UPS stores.  There's usually a surcharge for residential delivery, but the biggest obstacle to getting a pallet of ammo delivered to your home is the lack of a forklift or pallet jack to get the ammo from the driveway to where you actually want it.
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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2012, 12:28:10 AM »
the biggest obstacle to getting a pallet of ammo delivered to your home is the lack of a forklift or pallet jack to get the ammo from the driveway to where you actually want it.

I wouldn't want a pallet anywhere. I would want to break down the pallet anyway to stack it more efficiently, more out of the way. I'd have to do that by hand anyway, so I'd just break it down in the drive way and carry it in.
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buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2012, 01:17:09 AM »
I recently had a pallet of other stuff shipped LTL that was almost 700 pounds and it was only $200 for residential delivery with a tail gate.  Driver even put it in the garage for me.
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ksuguy

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2012, 08:52:40 AM »
I've gotten the impression that freight shipping isn't really that big of a deal--UPS advertises it in the UPS stores.  There's usually a surcharge for residential delivery, but the biggest obstacle to getting a pallet of ammo delivered to your home is the lack of a forklift or pallet jack to get the ammo from the driveway to where you actually want it.

In many cases that isn't even that hard.   There are moving companies that will come out to your house for things like safes or large furniture.   For a couple hundred dollars, they will take something from your driveway or garage and put it anywhere you want it.   
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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2012, 09:50:58 AM »
I do believe the bigger makers all require FFL's. 
But good luck getting an order done.  Were still getting ammo ordered back on March.

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buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2012, 01:30:42 PM »
Pallet load? You break it down once delivered. Takes a while and some sweat but i broke down and built up many a pallet by hand when working at Walmart. We also unloaded trucks by hand.
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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2012, 01:50:39 PM »
Pallet load? You break it down once delivered. Takes a while and some sweat but i broke down and built up many a pallet by hand when working at Walmart. We also unloaded trucks by hand.
We do this all the time at Basin Sports.
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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2012, 03:14:06 PM »
We do it all the time in the Air Force, only air cargo pallets are much larger than commercial wood pallets. You get enough guys and you can break down 30k worth of cargo in a few hours. Commercial pallet of ammo should take 2 or 3 guys less than an hour.
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seanp

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2012, 03:35:32 PM »
We also unloaded trucks by hand.

This used to be my job.  Loader/unloader.  A typical 28 can be unloaded by two guys in good health with the right equipment in as little as twenty five minutes.  A 53 in fourty five.  A mixed pallet of ammo - in cases - can be busted and sorted in five or ten minutes.
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akodo

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Re: buying ammo straight from factory
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2012, 07:44:28 PM »
  Moreover, it is pretty unlikely that you will make a cold call directly to company headquarters.  It would be wiser to give one of their regional distributors a call.  A regional distributor is more likely to be willing to talk to a small vendor/purchaser, talk you through the process, and make arrangements outside of the purchase and shipping procedures for big box stores.


A regional distributor is an excellent way of getting a good price for a single bunk purchase of a pallet or two of anything.  However, that wasn't my understanding of what was being asked.

maybe if you contact a smaller scale ammo maker rather than Federal or Remington you'd be able to get a pallet or so.


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