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Author Topic: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!  (Read 11186 times)

sarge712

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Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2013, 01:02:24 PM »
As George said, weapons handling is a martial art and this battle has raged for millennia resulting in the varied forms we see now. I am a follower of Bruce Lee's JKD philosophy, in that I take a bit here and a bit there and put together what works for ME, whether it be firearms, knives or hand-to-hand. You can take ten different boxers and you will see ten different fighting styles as in hands high up, hands at waist level, etc. yet to speak to trainers there is only ONE way to box, one set of techniques taught but each fighter puts his own twist on it. So then why the variations? As Lee stressed, there is NOT one way but instead there are as many "ways" as there are people and we should discard all locked-in mindsets.

When teaching my kids and LEO's to shoot, I have had to let them settle into the stance they feel best with as long as grip, sight picture and trigger press are done correctly. I could include breathing in that but in a running gun fight, breathing may be all to hell anyway. I have found I have to let them settle in to what feels best and lowers their stress and that in turn leads to better shooting.

As for the C clamp, I have short, thick arms and its a no go for me. I have a buddy who is so into it that he is looking for an extended length handguard for his AK so he doesn't grab a hot gas tube. To him, its the ONLY way. I think he prays to it for guidance. Maybe even lights a candle or two. Whatever. It seemed faddish and contrived to me when I first saw it a couple of years ago and still does.
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    theirishdragon

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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #26 on: July 30, 2013, 07:45:59 PM »
    Interesting, I just wrote a little Op-Ed on this kind of nonsense yesterday.  It should be up on Breach-Bang-Clear in a few days.

    Tactical Fanboys and Tactical Curmudgeons

       There has been a fair amount of back-and-forth lately over the extended arm, c-clamp grip on ARs for shooting.  Some swear by it, others disdain it, calling it the “tactical turtle.”  On both sides, you run into people saying that either it is the only way to shoot, or that it is so wrong that it will get you killed.
       The fact is, the grip does work for some people.  On a stock AR, I can’t use it, because I have long orangutan arms, and I would be holding on to the barrel with my off hand, which doesn’t work very well.  Locking out the wrist does work, with either a broomhandle or an angled foregrip (I can already hear the tactical curmudgeons grumbling about “cosmetic bulls___.”)  But I can’t lock out my elbow, being left-handed, because then I’m catching all the hot brass right out of the ejection port on the inside of my arm.
       So on one hand you have the tactical fanboys, who see the latest and greatest technique and/or gear, and declare it the best thing ever, the penultimate result of fight science, and it is now the end-all and be-all.  Everything else is obsolete.  On the other you have the tactical curmudgeons, for whom anything new is just for the fanboys, and is to be dismissed as airsoft bulls___.
       My point is that both points of view are wrong.  There is no end-all and be-all, no ultimate does-everything, one-size-fits-all technique or piece of kit.  Both groups are the equivalent of the SNCO or officer who mandates that everyone in his unit will have their gear set up exactly the same way, regardless of differences in size, reach, or handedness.  To them, uniformity is the great end-all, and that uniformity has to conform to their experience and prejudices.
       Gear and techniques are tools in a toolbox.  That’s all.  What works for one person might not work all that well for another.  My own experiences with the full-extension grip on a carbine are just one example.
       Don’t be a fanboy or a curmudgeon.  If something new comes along, take a look at it; try it out on the range or in the field, and see if it works.  If it works for some situations and not for others, make a note of it, and put it in your toolbox.  If you can’t make it work at all, let it go, but understand that unless it is something patently stupid and dangerous, it might just work for someone else.  Similarly, if something new comes along, test it before raving about how awesome it is, and how it makes everything else obsolete.  Some of the old-timers could do things with a rifle that a lot of shooters these days can’t manage even with all the fancy toys.
       In short, be a professional.  Look at these things rationally and practically.  When you get emotionally invested in your techniques or kit, you’re doing yourself, as well as anyone who looks to your opinion for guidance, a disservice.
    Fortis cadere, cedere non potest.

    Nightcrawler

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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #27 on: December 14, 2014, 03:32:23 PM »
    Resurrect!



    In this video, squeaky sounds notwithstanding, you can see people trying to use the C-clamp on a pump shotgun, bending their arm outward when cycling it instead of downward.

    It is just me, or does that look awkward as hell?
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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #28 on: December 14, 2014, 04:08:49 PM »
    Its just you.  We all have converted to it at this point.  Get with the program, slacker.   :neener
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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #29 on: December 14, 2014, 04:52:21 PM »
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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #30 on: December 14, 2014, 06:30:27 PM »
    Had a co-worker group at the range several yeas ago.  Handed one my sp101 to try out, loaded with full house 158 grain 357 rounds.  He locked down on that baby, DAMN HARD, in a tactical turtle.  Just as I was going to tap his shoulder and tell him to ride the recoil a bit and not fight it, he touched it off......

    Quote
    I've shot a lot of .44 Magnum.  You can lock your elbows if you want, but then your wrists will flip and it'll be worse. Better to let the bigger, stronger joint absorb the recoil than to let your wrist do all the work.

    YEP.......

    That was the first(and only) time I've seen a snubby 357 have ZERO muzzle rise....  He also had sore wrists and elbows for a week, shoulders hurt him for a day or so. 



    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

    coelacanth

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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #31 on: December 14, 2014, 11:14:36 PM »
    I had the same problem the one and only time I fired a mag full through a Desert Eagle.  Not the "locked down" part but the sore wrists part.  :doh
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #32 on: December 21, 2014, 12:20:13 AM »
    Ride the Recoil... let it flow through You.
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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #33 on: December 21, 2014, 01:37:54 AM »
    ^^^^^^  This.  With a heavy bucking magnum cartridge revolver, let the muzzle rise, let your wrists flex with it, and let your elbows bend a bit. 

    If you don't, you'll end up like a guy I met at a gun show recently.  He had been shooting magnum revolvers all his adult life.  He was selling his collection off.......

    Why?  Doc told him the cartilage in his wrists was destroyed.....

    Even Jerry Miculeck has mentioned in a couple instructional videos of his I've seen that he has basically destroyed a major nerve in his hand from the constant locking down and speed shooting of revolvers.
    This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty. . . . The right of self defence is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any colour or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction- St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries

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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #34 on: December 21, 2014, 01:50:36 AM »
    Some of this just looks uncomfortable.



    If your own arm is blocking your peripheral vision, you need to unbunch.  Being able to see is more important than marginal fractions of a second between shots.
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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #35 on: December 21, 2014, 02:09:02 PM »
    Ride the Recoil?

    Great name for an album

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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #36 on: December 21, 2014, 03:10:49 PM »
      "Ride the Recoil"? That was the sequel to "Cap-n-Ball".
    Semper Gumby.....Always Flexible.
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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #37 on: December 21, 2014, 03:13:38 PM »
    Lead is my favorite heavy metal.
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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #38 on: December 21, 2014, 07:22:06 PM »
    Some of this just looks uncomfortable.



    If your own arm is blocking your peripheral vision, you need to unbunch.  Being able to see is more important than marginal fractions of a second between shots.

    My stance is similar to this. I don't do the exaggerated tactical turtle though. I roll the rifle up and bring the sights to my eye. Not the other way around. I don't shoot "thumbs over bore", I just keep my reaction hand more to the left side. That grip and stance works well with my modified isosceles pistol stance.  :shrug
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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #39 on: December 21, 2014, 08:24:35 PM »
    My stance is similar to this. I don't do the exaggerated tactical turtle though. I roll the rifle up and bring the sights to my eye. Not the other way around. I don't shoot "thumbs over bore", I just keep my reaction hand more to the left side. That grip and stance works well with my modified isosceles pistol stance.  :shrug
    Pretty much how I do it too.
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    Re: Controversy! Arguing on the internet about shooting stance!
    « Reply #40 on: December 21, 2014, 08:32:31 PM »
    Its just you.  We all have converted to it at this point.  Get with the program, slacker.   :neener



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