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Author Topic: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?  (Read 5560 times)

Mississippi556

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The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
« on: July 19, 2013, 02:53:13 PM »
Here's a strange sight, double entendre intended.

I've had this optic for 40+ years, including the original packaging, and had largely forgotten.  It saw almost no use.  At the time I considered it a novelty.  Today it is a relic.  It does, perhaps have some historical value.  This is an example of what may well be the first successful, widely marketed "red dot" sight.

I rediscovered it yesterday when going through some boxes looking for something else.  I threw it on the tactical shotgun sort of as a joke.  It fits the mil-spec rail perfectly.  I think I might actually send some buckshot and slugs downrange while looking through it, just for hoots.

Anyone recognize it?  Anyone else have one?
 

 
Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

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    ZeroTA

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #1 on: July 19, 2013, 03:01:43 PM »
    Take it to those pawn shop guys in Vegas. Let him talk to his buddy who's an expert on red dots.

    Seriously, that's pretty cool and I also know nothing about it. What is it, fiber optic in a tube?
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    Coronach

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #2 on: July 19, 2013, 03:13:41 PM »
    Armson OEG?

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    Kuma

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #3 on: July 19, 2013, 03:23:11 PM »
    Is that a Weaver Qwik-Point?

    Mississippi556

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #4 on: July 19, 2013, 03:37:11 PM »
    Is that a Weaver Qwik-Point?

    Yep.  1972.  I was 22 years old. $50 bucks, if I recall.  The novelty interested me.  Slapped it on a used 11-48 Remington that I had drilled and tapped for Weaver bases.  I saved up for an 1100 w/ 28" IC barrel for bird hunting and sort of forgot about the Qwik-Point.  Been in the box all of these years gathering dust.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    coelacanth

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #5 on: July 19, 2013, 11:29:52 PM »
    Nice.   :cool    Maybe we need a thread titled " Look what I found in the garage ! "  .
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #6 on: July 20, 2013, 09:00:47 AM »
    Yup.  Had one issued to me. 

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    Mississippi556

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #7 on: July 20, 2013, 09:24:29 AM »
    It is a "fiber optic in a tube."  There are reflex lenses in it to carry the dot down to eye level.  No batteries.  Sort if a pre-Trijicon without the tritium.

    Because it is reflex you can block the objective side of the lower tube and still plainly see the dot.

    The 40+ year old lenses are multi-layer coated and the FOV is somewhat bluish and not up to today's level of brightness, even for cheap stuff. The dot is very large and clear.  I estimate it to be 10-12 MOA, so it ain't for precision, but it gets on target very quickly, true to its name.

    Made by Weaver in El Paso.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    MTK20

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #8 on: July 20, 2013, 07:35:14 PM »
    That's really cool  :thumbup1, I have never seen anything like that before. I wonder how common those "pre-trijicon's" were in the 70's  :hmm.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
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    RetroGrouch

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #9 on: July 20, 2013, 07:44:59 PM »
    Saw them advertised in the gun rags frequently back in the day, don't think I ever saw more than one or two in real life.
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    JesseL

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #10 on: July 20, 2013, 08:05:05 PM »
    How many of y'all knew that the reflector sight (aka red dot sight) was invented in 1900 by Howard Grubb
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflector_sight



    The first use of one on an aircraft in 1908:


    Arizona

    MTK20

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #11 on: July 20, 2013, 09:46:58 PM »
    I never would have guessed that the first red dot sight was that old. It seems so far ahead of its time in that year.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    strangelittleman

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #12 on: July 20, 2013, 11:11:05 PM »
    During Operation Ivory Coast ( The 1970 SonTay POW Raid), the Assault Element had OEG type sights on their CAR 15s.

    http://sontayraider.com/Slide5.JPG

    http://sontayraider.com/Slide8.JPG

    « Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 11:27:10 PM by strangelittleman »
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    Mississippi556

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #13 on: July 22, 2013, 01:04:53 PM »
    Armson OEG?

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    It was the Qwik-Point, but your reply got me to thinking that I had never seen an OEG.  From what I gather, since it did not allow the eye that sees the dot to also see the field of view, it "tricked" the user into imposing the dot into the view through the other eye.  This supposedly produced a sort of "wandering dot" effect if you looked at the dot more than momentarily, according to the reviews I found.   

    So, I view the Weaver QP as an evolution from OEG to Trijicon and modern red dots.

    BTW:  I fired a few heavy slug and buckshot rounds (10 each) through the tactical 1100 on Saturday.  Here are my impression:

    1.  This is an obsolete sight from the standpoint of optical clarity.  The bluish image is not very bright.  It's almost like looking through sunglasses.  Not dark sunglasses, but still sunglasses.  That is great on the skeet or trap range on a bright day.  Not so good otherwise.

    2.  The dot is very conspicuous and very clear.  No distortion or fuzziness.  Perfectly round.  And huge.

    3.  The sight and mounts are rock solid.  It was extremely easy to sight in.  The turret caps protect very nice turrets that have distinct 1/2 MOA clicks that can be both felt and heard without looking at the turret.  You do not need a tool.  Since the shotty did have adjustable rifle style iron sights and was sighted in for slugs, the darned QP actually co-witnessed, hovering just above the front sight!  On an AR this would require a riser to get up to or above standard height AR sights.

    4.  Once sighted in, it held absolute zero every time.  No change even from these heavy loads.  Of course, I only fired 20 times and only at 50 yards, but that satisfied me. Given that the dot subtends at least 10 MOA, it's hard to tell, but slugs and buckshot all hit predictably, about the same accuracy as the open sights, by putting the top center edge of the dot on the bottom center of the bull at 6 o'clock.  Good enough for a shotgun.  Probably terrible on a rifle beyond 50 yards.

    5.  The sight itself appears to be just about indestructible, or as much so as one could expect.  Nothing fragile about it.  Heavy aluminum.  The weak point is the  plastic light gathering nose.  Knock that off and no dot, although you can still see through the optic and co-witness with the iron sights.

    My curiosity is answered.  The quality is there.  It has stood up well over time.  The dim image, however, would never pass scrutiny today.  Back in the box.  Relic of a bygone era.  Interesting trip down memory lane.
    Mississippi"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe"  Words of Jesus, Luke 11:21 (ESV).

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #14 on: July 22, 2013, 02:39:50 PM »
    It is a "fiber optic in a tube."  There are reflex lenses in it to carry the dot down to eye level.  No batteries.  Sort if a pre-Trijicon without the tritium.

    Because it is reflex you can block the objective side of the lower tube and still plainly see the dot.

    The 40+ year old lenses are multi-layer coated and the FOV is somewhat bluish and not up to today's level of brightness, even for cheap stuff. The dot is very large and clear.  I estimate it to be 10-12 MOA, so it ain't for precision, but it gets on target very quickly, true to its name.

    Made by Weaver in El Paso.
    The OEG isn't like that.  The OEG...Occluded Eye Gunsight has no field of view.  It's a black field with a red dot in the center.  You shoot with both eyes open and your brain puts the two images together so you see the red point on your target.
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    MTK20

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #15 on: July 22, 2013, 03:53:02 PM »
    It was the Qwik-Point, but your reply got me to thinking that I had never seen an OEG.  From what I gather, since it did not allow the eye that sees the dot to also see the field of view, it "tricked" the user into imposing the dot into the view through the other eye.  This supposedly produced a sort of "wandering dot" effect if you looked at the dot more than momentarily, according to the reviews I found.   

    So, I view the Weaver QP as an evolution from OEG to Trijicon and modern red dots.

    BTW:  I fired a few heavy slug and buckshot rounds (10 each) through the tactical 1100 on Saturday.  Here are my impression:

    1.  This is an obsolete sight from the standpoint of optical clarity.  The bluish image is not very bright.  It's almost like looking through sunglasses.  Not dark sunglasses, but still sunglasses.  That is great on the skeet or trap range on a bright day.  Not so good otherwise.

    2.  The dot is very conspicuous and very clear.  No distortion or fuzziness.  Perfectly round.  And huge.

    3.  The sight and mounts are rock solid.  It was extremely easy to sight in.  The turret caps protect very nice turrets that have distinct 1/2 MOA clicks that can be both felt and heard without looking at the turret.  You do not need a tool.  Since the shotty did have adjustable rifle style iron sights and was sighted in for slugs, the darned QP actually co-witnessed, hovering just above the front sight!  On an AR this would require a riser to get up to or above standard height AR sights.

    4.  Once sighted in, it held absolute zero every time.  No change even from these heavy loads.  Of course, I only fired 20 times and only at 50 yards, but that satisfied me. Given that the dot subtends at least 10 MOA, it's hard to tell, but slugs and buckshot all hit predictably, about the same accuracy as the open sights, by putting the top center edge of the dot on the bottom center of the bull at 6 o'clock.  Good enough for a shotgun.  Probably terrible on a rifle beyond 50 yards.

    5.  The sight itself appears to be just about indestructible, or as much so as one could expect.  Nothing fragile about it.  Heavy aluminum.  The weak point is the  plastic light gathering nose.  Knock that off and no dot, although you can still see through the optic and co-witness with the iron sights.

    My curiosity is answered.  The quality is there.  It has stood up well over time.  The dim image, however, would never pass scrutiny today.  Back in the box.  Relic of a bygone era.  Interesting trip down memory lane.

    That was a neat look at an old sight, thanks for sharing it with us!
    I also wonder if the dot could fade with time? is any amount of tritium used in the old sight?
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    strangelittleman

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    Re: The Grandfather of Modern Red Dots?
    « Reply #16 on: July 22, 2013, 04:52:56 PM »
    The OEG isn't like that.  The OEG...Occluded Eye Gunsight has no field of view.  It's a black field with a red dot in the center.  You shoot with both eyes open and your brain puts the two images together so you see the red point on your target.
    Exactly!
    Semper Gumby.....Always Flexible.
    Vision without action is a daydream, Action without vision is a nightmare.
    Zol zayn azoy.

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