Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: Research question - Knife carry  (Read 1159 times)

luke213(adamsholsters)

  • Moderator
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3159
    • Adams Holsters

  • Offline
Research question - Knife carry
« on: April 15, 2017, 07:04:56 PM »
So guys working on a potential project or design for a customer/knife maker. I've got a request for a sheath design for a large fixed blade 6.5in. blade to 10.5in. with molle attachment. Two different knives hence the blade length difference.

The snaggle I'm seeing is location and method of carry. So typically large knives for me are carried on the belt, because that works and typically weak side cross draw of sorts. That's my normal mode of carry and 99% of the time that's what I run. That said I don't run a combat knife, more bushcraft because for my application honestly that's what I use. So I put on my plate carrier which is pretty normally setup nothing out of the ordinary. I'm having a bit of a time figuring out a position I could place a knife that large on my rig that wouldn't be a PITA. Horizontal is an option above the bottom row of magazine pouches if you aren't running pistol pouches or anything up high on the chest. Vertical in place of a mag row is another option that is possible but you're limiting ammo and at least from my POV that seems like a step in the wrong direction. That said I'm a civy, just a normal guy I'm not going into combat. If I were though I think I'd value 2-3 magazines of 5.56 far more than a knife. But that's why I'm here;)

So I'm looking for experience ideas and options. This isn't restricted to LEO's or MIL, however I am looking for guys who've run their gear. I really don't much care how so long as you've actually used it in a class etc hell I don't mind if it's airsoft so long as you've rolled around in the dirt with it and tried to run a slung rifle with it etc. Mostly I don't have much experience carrying a knife on my kit other than on my belt and again I'm no secret squirrel;) I'm just a guy who was asked to build something, and you guys know me I'm trying to build the best dang sheath I can within the customers spec, but even more important for my perspective is something that really works well for the guy out in harms way.

Also I should mention materials are up in the air. Some of you know I did allot of kydex bending with clips etc, and I've built my fair share of kydex holsters and sheaths over the years(however most are not posted anywhere;) So on this project because of the application and the customer is a local guy I know. I may build them from kydex and then cover them in 1000D Cordura or some other method that isn't typical of my work. I also might cover them in leather. One of the ideas in my mind is blood/debris and dirt, being able to wash out the rig. Also my reason for covering them is the ability to avoid noise issues with hard objects like the stock of a rifle hitting the sheath. I may be thinking too much into that, but kydex as a whole is pretty noisy and I figure at least from my POV a knife would see three uses. One just using it to cut stuff, noise likely doesn't matter much just daily use. Two it's a really bad day and you're in a knife fight up close again noise doesn't matter but quick access and control does. Three super secret squirrel sentry dispatch ala Hollywood green beret style knife work. This is the application where I see noise being the biggest issue and honestly I'm not a soldier and never was military, but I suspect that role to be a super small minority of mil guys as a whole if at all. Despite what hollywood says;) But I also put my mind in the role and well I would want it as quiet as possible if that was a necessary role.

So input far and wide would be appreciated, I've got some ideas already shaken out, but since this is outside my normal designs etc. I want to get some feedback from a bunch of knowledgeable people before designing and quoting him on this project. I am somewhat time sensitive, shooting for having at least a first prototype within a week or two. Delivering well around the end of my current lead time.

Thanks guys I appreciate any info and experience you've had on the topic;)

Luke
MichiganI am the owner/proprietor of www.adamsholsters.com Custom holsters made for you. To contact me please use E-mail rather than Private Messages, luke@adamsholsters.com

WeTheArmed.com

  • Advertisement
  • ***

    MTK20

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5340
    • Mind of a philosopher, mouth of a sailor.

    • Online
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #1 on: April 15, 2017, 07:34:11 PM »
    My schedule is pretty busy right now, and I'm going to watch how this thread goes to see if you get what you need, but I have a friend who I am 90% sure did some super secret squirrelly stuff in Afghanistan. If you can't get any good input here, I can go head hunting and try to reach out to him on his methods of carry. It's been a long time since we've connected.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    luke213(adamsholsters)

    • Moderator
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 3159
      • Adams Holsters

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #2 on: April 15, 2017, 07:40:32 PM »
    That would be great, I've reached out to a few guys I know on facebook with past/current mil experience etc, though to the best of my knowledge they were all just normal mil guys not into anything too fancy. Not to discount that at all, just none of them were special forces or the like so I'm looking for any and all input. I figure it this way cast a wide net and then filter things based on experience and how important they are. As well whether or not it's practical to design around.

    But the realty is that anything I design I try and make sure I use, in this case that's an oddity in that I don't have the experience to really test the idea. Granted I will setup whatever I design and do some testing with it on my own setup. But that isn't really that hard of a test. I do know though over the years I've thought something would work great in my head, then actually built and used it only to find out it's garbage and had to go back to a completely different design;)

    Luke
    MichiganI am the owner/proprietor of www.adamsholsters.com Custom holsters made for you. To contact me please use E-mail rather than Private Messages, luke@adamsholsters.com

    Grant

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 7843

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #3 on: April 15, 2017, 08:05:42 PM »
      Can't help you though I'm interested in seeing what comes of it.   Until recently my kit for SHTF,etc. was heavy duty folders and then compact saw/hatchet.   

    As it is even with a survival/combat knife it's going to be belt mounted.     I run super light "combat loads" so there's nowhere to put a knife except on my pack or belt.  And my belt ain't tactical, it's attached to my pants 24/7 as I consider a sidearm, reloads, leatherman, knife and flashlight to be everyday items and MUST stay on you even when you drop your rifle, magazines and pack.    Everything is built around my main stuff staying on my pants belt.

       
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    21B

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 192

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #4 on: April 15, 2017, 09:26:32 PM »
    While in Iraq, I carried my SOG Seal Pup (4.75" blade) in a kydex sheath on my left leg, hooked onto my thigh mag carrier strap, or on my left shoulder (just above the magazines on my plate carrier).  I was a combat engineer, so I wasn't doing much dismounted work, but that was the most comfortable place for it while keeping it accessible and out of the way of any other essential gear.

    Now days I just train with a battle belt, so if I am carrying a larger knife (like your project), I mount it vertically behind my handgun on my right hip, with a loose strand of paracord attached around my leg to prevent too much shifting around of the point of the sheath.

    luke213(adamsholsters)

    • Moderator
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 3159
      • Adams Holsters

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #5 on: April 15, 2017, 09:29:58 PM »
    Thanks that is sort of what I'm thinking as well, running it on the belt either weak side or behind the handgun seems to be the best position for that type of setup. At least with that size knife it's where it makes the most sense to me.

    Either way I'm curious for other ideas as well;) My theory standing is to build a dual purpose sheath or a modular attachment method, so you can run molle or run it off a belt. Since I suspect that's more practical for this sized knife, whether or not that's part of the spec.

    Take care!

    Luke
    MichiganI am the owner/proprietor of www.adamsholsters.com Custom holsters made for you. To contact me please use E-mail rather than Private Messages, luke@adamsholsters.com

    steveracer

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 169

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #6 on: April 16, 2017, 09:39:57 AM »
    In my last overseas "snoop and poop" gig, we all carried medium fixed blade knives on our belts, opposite side from the holster. Example for me was the ontario Rat-5, which I carried on the belt left side. We now carry NOTHING on the legs, so it's all on the belt or the armor, and a folding knife gets used 99% of the time, and the fixed blade is there because, well, we all feel good about having one.
    I have found a simple folded Kydex shell with a tec lock to be the very best thing for a fixed blade knife. looking around SOCEUR, at all our kits, it was more than 90% of us favored 5-6 inch fixed blades carried in simple kydex rigs. Many with a fire steel tied onto the holster.
    If you have more specific questions hit me up.

    Penguin

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1651

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #7 on: April 16, 2017, 06:22:49 PM »
    We now carry NOTHING on the legs, so it's all on the belt or the armor, and a folding knife gets used 99% of the time, and the fixed blade is there because, well, we all feel good about having one.

    Why nothing on the legs now?
    Doobie Doobie Doo...

    RetroGrouch

    • Senior Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 842

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #8 on: April 17, 2017, 12:38:58 AM »
    Not a former anything, other than hiking and camping.  Even though I carry a folder clipped in my pocket, I always carry a fixed blade with me while hiking or camping.  I usually carry it in a kydex sheath with a tech lock on my belt, or on a "dangler" at an angle for a cross draw.  I did have a sheath that had a magnet retainer that could be mounted upside down that I affixed to a shoulder strap on a backpack.
    Arizona

    steveracer

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 169

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #9 on: April 17, 2017, 06:36:43 AM »
    Why nothing on the legs now?
    There used to be drop leg holsters on everyone, and off side mag pouches either for pistol or rifle on the other leg. Most of the guys I work with including myself realized very early that unless you are standing around doing nothing, this is not just uncomfortable, but really restrictive if you have to move fast. Having everything on the belt or above puts you back in "normal human" category because you can move pretty well.
    Also, these last 10+ years of combat have been a lot of getting in and out of armored vehicles (much more than before, when armor guys and were the only folks doing that all the time) and the vehicles would have to be several feet wider in the seating area to accommodate the leg rigs. AND a lot of people had terrible infected in-grown hairs under the elastic straps on the leg.
    All this has led to a move away from putting gear on the legs. After about three days of mounted and dismounted patrols was enough for me. I made my own belt setup for the Safariland holsters we used to use, and never looked back.
    My last tour overseas (2013-2016), when we were all jocked up for anything, it was all on the belt and the armor. A lot easier to go back to looking like a normal guy too. Just remove the armor, put on a cover garment, and you still had your pistol, knife, light, and mags on you. 20 seconds from ninja turtle to regular dude.

    sarge712

    • WTA LEO
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5783
    • Just a teddy bear fulla luv, bub

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #10 on: April 17, 2017, 09:11:18 AM »
    I, too, keep my knife on my belt on the left side, opposite of my handgun. The only things on my plate carrier now are rifle ammo and IFAK. The rest (pistol, 2 pistol mags, fixed blade, multitool, radio and one spare rifle mag) is on my belt. We call it a "sub-fighting unit" or what you can still fight with if you had to drop your plates or were caught without them.

    The knife on the plate carrier looks cool but IMO presents an easier grab for a suspect that I'm trying to control and cuff. I like kydex for obvious reasons and the noise factor isn't a concern as I'm not going to ninja up behind and take out a sentry, etc. I may never use it but as steveracer said, it just feels better having one on hand. Its main purpose is to cut someone off of me if they are trying to take my rifle or pistol and I can't shoot them due to control, backstop, crowded room, etc.

    The origin of the drop leg holster and mag pouches was to accommodate a rappel harness and came about from the SAS. I was told this by an SF guy who was instructing a helo insertion course for us through the BIA. The only time I ever wore a drop leg rig was in this course and for that reason. When we went from rappelling in to FAST roping down, the leg rigs came off as they would rub against the FAST rope for some of the guys with thick thighs AND were just unneccesary. The holster and mag pouches, etc. twisted and flopped when I ran and generally gummed up the works. They look cool but that's about it if you aren't wearing a rappel harness and that's very rare that any SWAT team rappels despite it being a staple in training and competitions for some teams (not ours).
    « Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 09:24:45 AM by sarge712 »
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    Grant

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 7843

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #11 on: April 17, 2017, 10:59:25 AM »
    The origin of the drop leg holster and mag pouches was to accommodate a rappel harness and came about from the SAS. I was told this by an SF guy who was instructing a helo insertion course for us through the BIA. The only time I ever wore a drop leg rig was in this course and for that reason. When we went from rappelling in to FAST roping down, the leg rigs came off as they would rub against the FAST rope for some of the guys with thick thighs AND were just unneccesary. The holster and mag pouches, etc. twisted and flopped when I ran and generally gummed up the works. They look cool but that's about it if you aren't wearing a rappel harness and that's very rare that any SWAT team rappels despite it being a staple in training and competitions for some teams (not ours).


    Were these true drop-leg holsters as in a pair of dangly straps down from the belt and two straps to keep it tight to the leg?

       I ask because in all my "training"  ::)  Lol, I've really been liking the Gendarme and German police "drop legs", supported by hard leather, they're similar to the US duty belt with swivels, except not as much drop, just enough to put the butt level with the belt.    It's handy to keep it below coat level, but not so far as to be in the way.    I actually been thinking about getting one custom made as the surplus one's I've got are pretty worn out and/or not for the exact guns in them.
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    sarge712

    • WTA LEO
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5783
    • Just a teddy bear fulla luv, bub

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #12 on: April 17, 2017, 12:45:20 PM »
    I don't know what rig the SAS used.

    Back when I was doing the rappelling stuff I used a Bianchi UM-84 flap holster with the detachable drop extension. It was solid but still a pain
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    steveracer

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 169

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #13 on: April 17, 2017, 04:20:24 PM »
    What he said^.
    Even the very best drop holsters (I found a happy balance with the low ride safariland 6280) are a pain in the thighs.
    I can rappel with all my crap on, but it blows. At mountaineering school, we wore kit specific to the task.
    Last time I used a fighting knife in anger it was a very comical and totally lucky throw at an armadillo in Oklahoma. I couldn't do it again in a thousand tries, but the Gerber MK-II stuck that 'dillo right into the ground with about 30 Soldiers watching. I played it off like I us Navy boys just do crap like that all the time.

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 7138
    • eccentric orbit

    • Offline
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #14 on: April 18, 2017, 12:10:25 AM »
     :rotfl  Well played.   :cool
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    MTK20

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5340
    • Mind of a philosopher, mouth of a sailor.

    • Online
    Re: Research question - Knife carry
    « Reply #15 on: April 18, 2017, 06:25:47 AM »
    What he said^.
    Even the very best drop holsters (I found a happy balance with the low ride safariland 6280) are a pain in the thighs.
    I can rappel with all my crap on, but it blows. At mountaineering school, we wore kit specific to the task.
    Last time I used a fighting knife in anger it was a very comical and totally lucky throw at an armadillo in Oklahoma. I couldn't do it again in a thousand tries, but the Gerber MK-II stuck that 'dillo right into the ground with about 30 Soldiers watching. I played it off like I us Navy boys just do crap like that all the time.

     :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.