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Author Topic: A Second Amendment Article that both Enlightens and Infuriates...  (Read 8372 times)

MTK20

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Re: A Second Amendment Article that both Enlightens and Infuriates...
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2017, 03:45:58 pm »
Pain and retribution are the least effective means of enforcing anything on humans. A man will barely cross a road to get away from suffering, but will run a marathon simply because of an idea.

If an alien intelligence that is motivated by pain avoidance comes and sees human society. They would think we are all insane and clearly have no intelligence at all. Humans invent horribly dangerous and physically punishing sports simply to play for fun. Many of us run for considerable distances just to show we can. We take ourselves back into nature to feel its' full wrath for days at a time simply to 'get away from it all'.

The instant humans started being able to think about the future concretely. We began to suffer pain for rewards not instantly apparent. Our long line of evolution has taught us that to suffer is noble and laudable. IF it leads to future gain. We even consider humans that only act to avoid pain as cowards and imbeciles.

Anytime someone claims that avoiding suffering is how religion works to check human behavior has never actually looked at how religion motivates individuals and their society. A well functioning religion holds up a vision of suffering and pain now to attain benefits later. It holds up an ideal that endures massive pain. The story always states that to live correctly you must suffer.

Religion is not offering a stick to motivate. It offers the carrot. IF it is a really smart religion. It offers that one thing biology pushed most deep into our psyche. Survival. If we suffer now to be closer to perfection. We can even beat death.

A human that feels it is suffering for no reason typically becomes nihilistic. IF to exist is to have suffering and pain(which is a truth no one can deny.) Then why not eliminate existence? This is the answer many mass shooters have even if they cannot articulate it themselves.

A good religion gives this suffering a purpose. Once the human feels there is a purpose then they gladly take the pain and discomfort. Religion simply co-opts this built in evolutionary trait of suffering for later gain to manipulate us into a functioning society.

All the religions that have ceased to be followed were based on punitive coercion. A god punished you for not doing correct things. As religions evolved they learned that didn't work very well, BUT if they promised salvation(immortality) and that suffering gets you there. Bang, they spread like wildfire. It was a meme writ large across the ages.     

I would like to dispassionately challenge this for the sake of debate. Not all atheists are nihilistic. I would say that as is the case with utilitarian ethics, the school of skepticism, and nihilists, there is a good deal of truth to be gleaned from the philosophy. Even if it is far from being an all encompassing philosophy.

Regarding mass shooters/murderers, there are individuals who do not kill because nihilist teaching acknowledges the pointless absurdity of life, but rather they feel that humans deserve pain and malice. They lack empathy, which is not a universal feeling among humans for their fellow man. Nihilism states that there is no such thing as God, morality, or love. That life is merely the passing of this one mortal coil into the void of death and nothing.

From what I can gather from the psychology of mass murderers, they are much more ambitious and goal oriented than nihilists, where in they make the goal to not just pass from one mortal coil into the next, but rather cause as much agony and pain among humans as they can. They may contain elements of self hatred, but they always contain hatred for their fellow man.
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Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
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Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Kaso

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    Re: A Second Amendment Article that both Enlightens and Infuriates...
    « Reply #26 on: May 31, 2017, 06:42:20 pm »
    From what I can gather from the psychology of mass murderers, they are much more ambitious and goal oriented than nihilists, where in they make the goal to not just pass from one mortal coil into the next, but rather cause as much agony and pain among humans as they can. They may contain elements of self hatred, but they always contain hatred for their fellow man.
    I think you give them far too much credit.  Rather than seeking to give others their due suffering, most of them use the suffering as a medium and the victims as a canvas.  They are insecure attention whores who use killing as a shock 'art' to force the public to pay attention to them.  And our leftist media is happy to oblige them.

    MTK20

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    Re: A Second Amendment Article that both Enlightens and Infuriates...
    « Reply #27 on: May 31, 2017, 09:09:36 pm »
    I think you give them far too much credit.  Rather than seeking to give others their due suffering, most of them use the suffering as a medium and the victims as a canvas.  They are insecure attention whores who use killing as a shock 'art' to force the public to pay attention to them.  And our leftist media is happy to oblige them.

    This is also an acceptable explanation  :thumbup1.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Plebian

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    Re: A Second Amendment Article that both Enlightens and Infuriates...
    « Reply #28 on: June 01, 2017, 02:32:44 am »
    I would like to dispassionately challenge this for the sake of debate. Not all atheists are nihilistic. I would say that as is the case with utilitarian ethics, the school of skepticism, and nihilists, there is a good deal of truth to be gleaned from the philosophy. Even if it is far from being an all encompassing philosophy.

    Regarding mass shooters/murderers, there are individuals who do not kill because nihilist teaching acknowledges the pointless absurdity of life, but rather they feel that humans deserve pain and malice. They lack empathy, which is not a universal feeling among humans for their fellow man. Nihilism states that there is no such thing as God, morality, or love. That life is merely the passing of this one mortal coil into the void of death and nothing.

    From what I can gather from the psychology of mass murderers, they are much more ambitious and goal oriented than nihilists, where in they make the goal to not just pass from one mortal coil into the next, but rather cause as much agony and pain among humans as they can. They may contain elements of self hatred, but they always contain hatred for their fellow man.

    I cannot quite understand what points you are debating here. So I will attempt to clarify as I best understand your side.

    I never said anything about atheist, agnostic or non-religious belief. Since I am a pretty hardcore atheist. Then I would for sure agree many atheists are not nihilistic. I tend to find the thought processes behind nihilistic philosophies to be mostly sophist and useless to actually use in life. But, that can be said for a great many philosophic ramblings so perhaps that fact should not be held against it.

    I have also rarely read psychologists ascribing lack of empathy to mass shooters. Most of the things I have read say they are not without empathy like many serial killers. The mass shooters tend to have empathy which is what allows them to know what they are doing will cause great pain and suffering to the families of their victims.

    They tend to not maximize pain and agony like a serial killer torturing for his own amusement and feeling of control. They are killing as effectively as they can to spread out the hate they feel for themselves. They are punishing what they feel has made them suffer. They rarely believe all humans should feel agony and pain. It is just a chance for them to payback the suffering they feel they received from their target.

    The mass shooter feels they can have one last dance on a huge stage and gain some immortality in the news. Once their show is stopped by an individual or lack of ability to carry out more mayhem. They tend to off themselves as life was just a pointless exercise anyway.

    If the mass shooter is not an almost pure embodiment of nihilism. Then I do not know what is.     
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

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