Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: Springfield and RRA liquidation  (Read 7349 times)

katmandoo

  • This is gonna take crackerjack timing Wang...
  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 264

  • Offline
MinnesotaKevin - Stillwater, MN

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in Chapter 40 of "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764

WeTheArmed.com

  • Advertisement
  • ***

    MTK20

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5548
    • Mind of a philosopher, mouth of a sailor.

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #1 on: May 06, 2017, 09:24:02 PM »
    I like both of these companies  :-\ .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    ksuguy

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4702

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #2 on: May 06, 2017, 09:33:26 PM »
    I have products from both and I was considering buying a .458 SOCOM upper from Rock River in the near future.  I was disappointed to hear about this.

    Their statements about them being unaware of the lobbyist's actions seem fishy given that several members of the board of the lobbying group are Springfield and Rock River employees.   I'm guessing someone thought they could cut a deal and get their carve out.  When they were called on it,  they started backpedaling.     

    As of right now,  any purchases from me are in a holding pattern waiting to see how this all plays out.   
    Kansas

    Kaso

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6407
    • WTA Hardline Antagonist (aka: Jerk)

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #3 on: May 06, 2017, 10:49:26 PM »
    I like both of these companies  :-\ .
    As do I, and I will continue to buy their products as I see fit.

    I have been following this since I found out about it, and you know what?  Springfield and RRA are not at fault here.  The lobbying agency that secured the exemption was the Illinois Firearm Manufacturers Association.  (SA and RRA more or less ran the Association on account of them being the two major manufacturers in the state.)  A manufacturers' association is in business to look out for... Manufacturers. :o  In securing the exemption, (which I doubt was very difficult, seeing as they are not the main targets of the law) they did their job well.

    Do I feel the public has a right to be upset with the companies?  No.  Maybe at the individuals that run both the companies and the association, but not the manufacturers themselves.  This is yet another example of the gun industry going apes___ over a supposed 'sellout.'  Who here remembers when after Sandy Hook, a large part of the gun community was making noise to boycott Magpul, on account of them not refusing to sell their products to LEOs in states where civilians could not own the same?  Sounds kind of silly to demand that a private company work against their own interests in order to further yours, doesn't it?  Yet that is what we tried to do.  While Magpul eventually caved to the demands of the scared and irrational gun owners, their move did not one thing to influence policy, and I am sure cost them quite a bit in potential contracts. 

    Compare this to SA and RRA.  Illinois is the Dog that is wagged by the Tail of Chicago.  Under such left-leaning influence, this legislation will likely pass.  SA and RRA were right to try to get what they could to continue their operations.  Their opposition was not going to hold up this bill, so the association did what it could with what it had to work with.  They were in between two bad places: A Democratic legislature and the unreasonable American gun owner.
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
    20 January 2017, 12:01pm
    Here's to a great four years!

    MTK20

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5548
    • Mind of a philosopher, mouth of a sailor.

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #4 on: May 06, 2017, 11:30:46 PM »


    Nothin' but politickin' and pocket linin'!  :P
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    katmandoo

    • This is gonna take crackerjack timing Wang...
    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 264

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #5 on: May 07, 2017, 02:01:34 AM »

     Their opposition was not going to hold up this bill, so the association did what it could with what it had to work with.  They were in between two bad places: A Democratic legislature and the unreasonable American gun owner.
    According to what I've read it didn't have the votes until after the IFMA dropped  their opposition to it and I'd bet the IFMA doesn't do anything without buy in from SA or RRA.

    Besides the M1A neither one has anything I'd spend money on.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
    MinnesotaKevin - Stillwater, MN

    "The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

    Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in Chapter 40 of "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764


    Kaso

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6407
    • WTA Hardline Antagonist (aka: Jerk)

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #7 on: May 07, 2017, 12:44:53 PM »
    According to what I've read it didn't have the votes until after the IFMA dropped  their opposition to it and I'd bet the IFMA doesn't do anything without buy in from SA or RRA.
    The Illinois State Legislature is heavily Democrat.  This bill would have passed one way or another.  If not this year, then maybe next.  Once again, the IFMA took what they could get, while they still could.  I can not fault them for that.

    In ksguy's article it makes a point how the IFMA had been donating to Democrats...  That is because they are who run the legislature.  Basically, they were (and are) paying off leftist traitors to not go after their own interests.  Their interests.  The lobbying organization works for manufacturers, not the local gun stores. 

    I understand that Illinois gun owners and gun stores are pissed...  I would be too.  But at the unconstitutional traitors that voted for it, not a lobbying agency or the ones whose interests they lobby for.
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
    20 January 2017, 12:01pm
    Here's to a great four years!

    ksuguy

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4702

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #8 on: May 07, 2017, 01:40:19 PM »
    Paying off and cutting deals with them never works.  They'll just be back again later.   

    Honestly, I don't know why these companies didn't flee that s___hole of a state years ago. Same goes for DSA (who seems to be mostly uninvolved with this). 
    Kansas

    LowKey

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 198

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #9 on: May 07, 2017, 03:10:53 PM »
    The Illinois State Legislature is heavily Democrat.  This bill would have passed one way or another.  If not this year, then maybe next.  Once again, the IFMA took what they could get, while they still could.  I can not fault them for that.

    In ksguy's article it makes a point how the IFMA had been donating to Democrats...  That is because they are who run the legislature.  Basically, they were (and are) paying off leftist traitors to not go after their own interests.  Their interests.  The lobbying organization works for manufacturers, not the local gun stores. 

    I understand that Illinois gun owners and gun stores are pissed...  I would be too.  But at the unconstitutional traitors that voted for it, not a lobbying agency or the ones whose interests they lobby for.

    Kinda like paying protection money to the mob that runs your part of town, cutting deals with them to get a few perks at the expense of others in your community, and providing alibis for them and being the one who advises everyone else to just roll over because it would be "risky" to stand up to them.  Besides, rocking the boat would be "bad for business", right?
    Nope, no idea why people might be fed up with companies who's ethics would have fit well in Vichy, France.     

    Legally they're fine and dandy and well within their rights.
    Consumers are also well within their rights to not support companies that do things of which they disapprove.

    Kaso

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6407
    • WTA Hardline Antagonist (aka: Jerk)

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #10 on: May 07, 2017, 03:18:52 PM »
    Legally they're fine and dandy and well within their rights.
    Consumers are also well within their rights to not support companies that do things of which they disapprove.
    Indeed, but if past examples hold true, this will be done and forgotten within two years.  So SA and RRA take a bit of a hit in orders now - when no one is really ordering anyway - and by the time orders pick up, we as the gun community will have done and forgotten. :shrug
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
    20 January 2017, 12:01pm
    Here's to a great four years!

    LowKey

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 198

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #11 on: May 07, 2017, 03:58:16 PM »
    Indeed, but if past examples hold true, this will be done and forgotten within two years.  So SA and RRA take a bit of a hit in orders now - when no one is really ordering anyway - and by the time orders pick up, we as the gun community will have done and forgotten. :shrug
    It wasn't that easy for S&W or Ruger back in the 90's. 
    The fallout from their bad choices had lingering effects for quite a long time, and with the increased influence of the Internet these days it's very possible that this incident will be kept alive in the shooting communities public conscience just as long or longer.   Not to mention the demographics of the shooting community have changed which will factor in, how so remains to be seen.

    MTK20

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5548
    • Mind of a philosopher, mouth of a sailor.

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #12 on: May 07, 2017, 04:01:24 PM »
    We're still suffering from S&W aren't we? When will they get rid of that stupid trigger lock  :banghead.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Raptor

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6417
    • Ain't nothin' like me 'cept me!
      • Raptor's Nest

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #13 on: May 07, 2017, 04:21:24 PM »
    I can believe that a lobbying group would cut a deal without consent of the people/organizations they represent. But the allegation that IFMA is operated by SA and RRA executives and employees make it hard to believe in this instance.

    I can't speak for anyone else, nor encourage anyone to take any particular action, but personally, I was having trouble deciding between a Silent Operator and a custom Dan Wesson 1911 (basically a Specialist with suppressor-height sights and a threaded barrel). If the allegations about SA and RRA employees being heavily involved in IFMA's day-to-day operations are true, I'll definitely be going with the DW.
    « Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 04:46:11 PM by Raptor »
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    LowKey

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 198

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #14 on: May 07, 2017, 04:48:09 PM »
    I can believe that a lobbying group would cut a deal without consent of the people/organizations they represent. But the allegation that IFMA is operated by SA and RRA executives and employees make it hard to believe in this instance.

    Out of the 5 people listed on the tax paperwork for the organization four of them are senior members of Springfield and RRA management, the fifth the sole lobbyist who worked for them.  Rather implausible that not one of the four were informed of the intent to make a 180 degree change in the organizations position.   



    Incidentally, this tax form is public record and has already been posted on the Internet for all to see or one may pay the requisite fee and obtain it from the government records directly.  It is not a matter of rumor or speculation.

    Raptor

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6417
    • Ain't nothin' like me 'cept me!
      • Raptor's Nest

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #15 on: May 07, 2017, 05:16:38 PM »
    Understood. I saw a picture of it on Facebook (on my smartphone) but wasn't 100% sure what it was and couldn't find it again, so I wasn't certain of its authenticity.

    Yeah, I'm definitely gonna go with the Dan Wesson.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

    “Libprogs want conservatives to be silent. Conservatives want libprogs to keep talking so the world can see just how full of sh*t they are.” – Larry Correia

    "When the odds are impossible, count on crazy." - JesseL

    aikorob

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1227

    • Online
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #16 on: May 08, 2017, 05:52:35 AM »
    I can't imagine the s#!tstorm if this had been public knowledge at the NRA show
    GeorgiaFrom The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

    LowKey

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 198

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #17 on: May 08, 2017, 07:57:24 AM »
    I can't imagine the s#!tstorm if this had been public knowledge at the NRA show
    Allow me to help you with that imagery....

    ksuguy

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4702

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #18 on: May 08, 2017, 07:58:19 AM »
    It was, but I don't think it had really started to get going yet.   If the show had been a couple days later, it would have been crazy. 
    Kansas

    Kaso

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6407
    • WTA Hardline Antagonist (aka: Jerk)

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #19 on: May 08, 2017, 05:26:41 PM »
    It wasn't that easy for S&W or Ruger back in the 90's. 
    The fallout from their bad choices had lingering effects for quite a long time, and with the increased influence of the Internet these days it's very possible that this incident will be kept alive in the shooting communities public conscience just as long or longer.   Not to mention the demographics of the shooting community have changed which will factor in, how so remains to be seen.
    Yeah...  But we (no one specifically, but the gun community as a whole) still buy guns at Dicks, patronize their subsidiery Field and Stream, and the last time I checked, Cheaper than Dirt was still in business.  These guys really did cut and run four years ago, and no one really remembers that.  Add to that, the stores mentioned pissed off gun owners at the national level, whereas only Illinois residents are getting screwed, indirectly, by SA and RRA.

    If Ruger and S&W did what they did today, in 2017, they would lose a few sales, but I think that would largely be the end of it.  They would not be driven out of business, nor would any but a few remember what they did in 2037.
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
    20 January 2017, 12:01pm
    Here's to a great four years!

    coelacanth

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 7252
    • eccentric orbit

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #20 on: May 09, 2017, 12:42:12 AM »
    I still don't patronize Cheaper Than Dirt and continue to drive by the Dick's Sporting Goods a mile from my house to shop elsewhere.  I also don't buy anything from the company currently producing "Crusader" rifles who shall remain nameless on these pages. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    LowKey

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 198

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #21 on: May 09, 2017, 01:53:45 AM »
    Yeah...  But we (no one specifically, but the gun community as a whole) still buy guns at Dicks, patronize their subsidiery Field and Stream, and the last time I checked, Cheaper than Dirt was still in business.  These guys really did cut and run four years ago, and no one really remembers that.  Add to that, the stores mentioned pissed off gun owners at the national level, whereas only Illinois residents are getting screwed, indirectly, by SA and RRA.

    If Ruger and S&W did what they did today, in 2017, they would lose a few sales, but I think that would largely be the end of it.  They would not be driven out of business, nor would any but a few remember what they did in 2037.
    I understand what you're saying, and it may indeed play out that way.
    However the social climate has changed, the pervasiveness of social media has increased, and in this particular field the market is so saturated with manufacturers and product that the products from these two firms could all disappear from the supply chain tomorrow and the loss would not be felt by buyers at all. 
    Prices would not rise, there would be no shortages of firearms for sale, and aside from brand loyalists there would be no upset.

    Had this occurred during one of the gun buying panics of years past, when the demand so far outmatched the supply that people would have gladly bought an AR from Diane Feinstein right after Sandy Hook, I'd say they'd be at much less risk.
    With the shape the firearms market seems to be in today?   
    And the heightened political tensions regarding the 2A and the upswing in activism supporting it? 
    This is probably the worst time to be caught undercutting, or appearing to undercut, the shooting community in the last 50 years.   
    At this point Springfield and RRA needs the shooting community to survive a whole lot more than the shooting community needs Springfield or RRA to survive. 
    For shooters the supply of manufacturers is ample, and they can easily afford to cull a few from the herd right now in the interests of improving the ethics of the industry going forward.   
    Will that happen? I'm not sure, but Springfield and RRA can't simply count on maintaining steady sales after this debacle in a market where their companies are superfluous.   
    S&W suffered a %40 reduction in sales in the year following their sellout to the Clinton administration.
    That was at a time when the market was hungry for guns...a sellers market.  We now have a glut, a buyers market.
    Can Springfield and RRA survive a %40 reduction in sales on top of the already reduced sales rate in this glutted market?

    bignate88

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 195

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #22 on: May 09, 2017, 10:38:29 AM »
    I still don't patronize Cheaper Than Dirt and continue to drive by the Dick's Sporting Goods a mile from my house to shop elsewhere.  I also don't buy anything from the company currently producing "Crusader" rifles who shall remain nameless on these pages.
    Same here

    Sent from my LG-H631 using Tapatalk

    IllinoisThere’s a story about a turtle and a scorpion. Scorpion is stranded on a river bank. Turtle sees this and asks Scorpion to get on his back and he’ll take him across the river. Scorpion gets on Turtle’s back and they go into the river. When they’re about halfway across, Scorpion stings Turtle. As Turtle is sinking, knowing they’re both going to die, he asks Scorpion "Why did you sting me, we’re both going to die?" and Scorpion says "It’s not my fault; it’s what I am."

    katmandoo

    • This is gonna take crackerjack timing Wang...
    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 264

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #23 on: May 09, 2017, 10:48:01 AM »
    I still don't patronize Cheaper Than Dirt and continue to drive by the Dick's Sporting Goods a mile from my house to shop elsewhere.  I also don't buy anything from the company currently producing "Crusader" rifles who shall remain nameless on these pages.
    Nope, neither do I.  I also don't have anything to do with RECOIL magazine.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

    MinnesotaKevin - Stillwater, MN

    "The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

    Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in Chapter 40 of "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764

    ksuguy

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4702

    • Offline
    Re: Springfield and RRA liquidation
    « Reply #24 on: May 09, 2017, 10:57:12 AM »
    That was at a time when the market was hungry for guns...a sellers market.  We now have a glut, a buyers market.
    Can Springfield and RRA survive a %40 reduction in sales on top of the already reduced sales rate in this glutted market?

    Springfield does have one thing going for them in that they are pretty much the only widely available source for M1As.  Sure there are others out there like Fulton Armory,  but all the other manufacturers are tiny and their products are pricey.    As for the rest of their product line,  nothing really special.   The Saint?   Plenty of other places to get an AR without the stupid hype marketing.   The XD series?   Decent enough pistol, but it's not like there aren't a dozen comparable options.   Same for their 1911's.    That being said,  seems like Springfield is getting more heat about this than Rock River.   Mainly because they are bigger and a much more widely recognized name in the industry.   

    I'm still waiting for both companies to step up and do something about this mistake.   They are going to need something more than CYA press releases and platitudes.  The screwed up big and they need to pull out all the stops to make this right. 
    Kansas

    Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.