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Author Topic: Shall Issue Concealed Carry Permit vs FFL Dealer discretion...  (Read 479 times)

RMc

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Shall Issue Concealed Carry Permit vs FFL Dealer discretion...
« on: November 24, 2016, 02:06:34 AM »
...to deny firearm purchase when the background check is passed.

See:  http://www.wcjb.com/local-news/2016/11/gainesville-muslim-claims-discrimination-bass-pro-shops

Is it hypocritical to support requiring state CCWP issuing authorities to issue a permit/license when all legal requirements/background check are met and at the same time support the discretionary authority granted to FFL holders to deny purchase to a customer that passes the required background check?

  :scrutiny



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    Kaso

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    Re: Shall Issue Concealed Carry Permit vs FFL Dealer discretion...
    « Reply #1 on: November 24, 2016, 05:16:59 AM »
    I won't say the store employee was *right*, whether in his judgment or motives, but around here there are more than a few shops that have signs stating that they  'may refuse a sale to anyone, for any reason.'  It is a sound policy.  It can be used to discriminate, but the main reason is that it can be used when everything checks out with a customer, they pass all the checks, but something just doesn't feel right about them.  You just have a bad feeling about them, and you don't want to complete the sale.

    If the shoe was on the other foot, and you were a Bass Pro employee who happened to know a certain customer was a member of the KKK, and one day comes in and wants to buy an AK with a crapload of ammo and mags, and gear to carry the mags...  You would want to have that standing policy, to be able to point over your shoulder at the sign, and tell him, "Sorry, 'anyone for any reason.' No sale today."
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    NukMed

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    Re: Shall Issue Concealed Carry Permit vs FFL Dealer discretion...
    « Reply #2 on: November 24, 2016, 09:21:12 AM »
    Is it hypocritical to support requiring state CCWP issuing authorities to issue a permit/license when all legal requirements/background check are met and at the same time support the discretionary authority granted to FFL holders to deny purchase to a customer that passes the required background check?

    Hypocritical?  Perhaps.  For me, it comes down to the exercise of rights.  There are different rights at issue and different parties trying to exercise those rights.

    The right to property lies with the property owner, not the party seeking to gain ownership.  Until ownership is legitimately transferred via gift, inheritance, or sale the current owner may dispose of his property as he sees fit.  That includes retention of the property in question for any reason he chooses.  In this case, the seller (or his designated agent) was within his rights to refuse sale.

    Next, the buyer's right to arms is infringed (not to mention rights described in the 4th and 5th Amendments) via the regulatory regime placed upon the firearms industry and those wishing to obtain and carry arms.  One should not have to be subjected to investigations or obtain permission before being allowed to exercise a right.  In this case the buyer had his rights violated by the government, but not the seller.

    There are other rights at stake (e.g. the right of contract, 13th Amendment prohibitions, etc...) that could have come into play should the two parties have agreed on a sale, but the regulatory regime interfered.

    So, to answer your question...  Is it hypocritical?  I don't know.  Is it hypocritical to advocate the violation of one man's rights while supporting the rights of another?  I suppose it comes down to how one has defined/recognized what rights are and one's consistency in their support.
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    JesseL

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    Re: Shall Issue Concealed Carry Permit vs FFL Dealer discretion...
    « Reply #3 on: November 24, 2016, 08:06:55 PM »
    Two completely different things.

    The government's job is to protect people's rights. If they deny someone's basic liberties they have to have a damned good reason because their fundamental charter is based on protecting rights in exchange for a monopoly on the initiation of force.

    A business is there to engage in commerce among mutually consenting parties. If they don't consent to a sale they're not infringing on any rights. They're not a monopoly and the prospective buyer is still free to shop elsewhere.
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    MTK20

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    Re: Shall Issue Concealed Carry Permit vs FFL Dealer discretion...
    « Reply #4 on: November 24, 2016, 08:13:44 PM »
    Two completely different things.

    The government's job is to protect people's rights. If they deny someone's basic liberties they have to have a damned good reason because their fundamental charter is based on protecting rights in exchange for a monopoly on the initiation of force.

    A business is there to engage in commerce among mutually consenting parties. If they don't consent to a sale they're not infringing on any rights. They're not a monopoly and the prospective buyer is still free to shop elsewhere.

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    cpaspr

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    Re: Shall Issue Concealed Carry Permit vs FFL Dealer discretion...
    « Reply #5 on: November 24, 2016, 09:57:19 PM »
    Were they legal to refuse the sale?  Absolutely, for the reasons Jesse stated.  Will there be repercussions because of the refusal to sell to him?  Absolutely.  Bass Pro Shops, at least that one, just lost all future sales from him and his family and probably his friend (Smiley).  Probably more.  That's called "consequences".  But no one's "rights" were denied.  Postponed perhaps, requiring him to go to another store, but not denied.

    One thing though.  They should have given him back his $5 for the background check.  If the clerk wasn't going to let the sale be completed, they shouldn't have done the background check in the first place.
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    StevenTing

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    Re: Shall Issue Concealed Carry Permit vs FFL Dealer discretion...
    « Reply #6 on: November 25, 2016, 05:47:45 PM »
    Haven't read the article yet but an FFL definitely has the right to refuse sale. In the instances of a Straw Purchase, the person would pass the Background check. However if you suspect it's a straw purchase you want to have that ability to refuse.

    Now I'm going to read the article.
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    Chief45

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    Re: Shall Issue Concealed Carry Permit vs FFL Dealer discretion...
    « Reply #7 on: November 25, 2016, 06:04:40 PM »
    In talking to a local dealer, every gun show he gets hit up by shills attempting to purchase illegally. A couple of repeat attempts by the same guy, using different names, who we believe is working directly for ATF. Private businesses has the right to refuse and this admin is just as happy to have a dealer not sell as a consequence of their actions, under the better safe than sorry idea.



     
    Haven't read the article yet but an FFL definitely has the right to refuse sale. In the instances of a Straw Purchase, the person would pass the Background check. However if you suspect it's a straw purchase you want to have that ability to refuse.

    Now I'm going to read the article.
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