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Author Topic: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:  (Read 1224 times)

RMc

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Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« on: January 19, 2013, 09:57:40 PM »
In the headlong rush to establish universal record checks for any firearm transfer, mass media pundits generally assume that a record check and a gun owner registration are one and the same. 

Should gun owner registration be a major civil rights concern under the Second Amendment ?   
Alabama


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Kaso

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2013, 10:04:27 PM »
Should gun owner registration be a major civil rights concern under the Second Amendment ?   
If you have to ask yourself that question, you probably already know the answer...



Kaso
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goatroper

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2013, 10:55:23 PM »
If you have to ask yourself that question, you probably already know the answer...



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VirginiaGoatroper

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2013, 10:57:23 PM »
In the headlong rush to establish universal record checks for any firearm transfer, mass media pundits generally assume that a record check and a gun owner registration are one and the same. 

Should gun owner registration be a major civil rights concern under the Second Amendment ?   

Lately I hear a lot of statistics on how many firearms are sold without background checks.  If there's no paper trail, how do they know?
VirginiaGoatroper

RMc

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2013, 11:10:51 PM »
If you have to ask yourself that question, you probably already know the answer...

Kaso

I am asking the members of this forum.

The media portrait of record checks conveniently excises the difference between record checks and registration. So, how can we present this civil rights issue - in a way that moves our non-gunowning friends and neighbors, to be concerned?
Alabama

Coronach

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2013, 12:09:21 AM »
The real problem you are going to have is that arguing against registration is not a pure RKBA argument. It is possible, in theory, to have a situation in which the government knows who has what guns and never ever ever ever makes a move to confiscate them. Hey, we're just keeping track of everything to help conduct background checks and make sure these things don't fall into the wrong hands.

Now, before you blast me for being naive, I'm fully aware of the track record of registration vis a vis confiscation, and I trust DiFi et al about as far as I can chuck them. I understand the peril. But that is a practical argument, not a legal one.

There is also a chance that, if a registration case ever got to SCOTUS, the court would say "yeah, just because you register them doesn't mean they'll get taken, so we're cool with registering them...come back to us if confiscation starts and we'll say that the confiscation is illegal." All well and good when you have majority opinions written by Scalia. Less good when they're written by Sotomayor.

It's not an easy argument to make to non-diehard RKBA types.

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Nightcrawler

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2013, 04:01:20 PM »
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RMc

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2013, 11:32:10 PM »
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ksuguy

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 12:02:19 AM »
Good for them.   I just hope we don't find ourselves in a similar situation nationally at some point.   At least New Yorkers still have the option of moving to a better state.   
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RevDisk

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2013, 10:09:29 AM »
In the headlong rush to establish universal record checks for any firearm transfer, mass media pundits generally assume that a record check and a gun owner registration are one and the same. 

Should gun owner registration be a major civil rights concern under the Second Amendment ?   


They are not the same. There is a difference between your FFL keeping copies of the yellow sheets, and the police keeping a copy of the yellow sheets in a centralized database. There is a difference between a NICS check and a registration (or at least, by law there is supposed to be). Just in case, my state runs PICS.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=4451&&PageID=461119&mode=2

Every state can run its own instant check system, rather than rely on NICS. 20 states do. If your state is using the federal NICS system, that is by choice. Comes down to trust. By law, background check is not supposed to be used for any other purpose, including registration. But... Who do you trust? I trust the PSP to follow their orders, which are likely not to include mass registration. I mostly trust the PSP management. FBI...  Well. Only takes one database geek to retain the records of every check. Even if every single agent is honest and follows the law, it doesn't mean their management will.
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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2013, 10:34:58 AM »
Should gun owner registration be a major civil rights concern under the Second Amendment ?   

Absolutely, it is a civil rights concern.  For the record, I also see the NFA, GCA, AWB, import restrictions, background checks, special taxes, and any other various and sundry infringements of my right to keep and bear arms as a civil rights concern.
Freedom trumps fear.  Rights trump security.  Free will trumps order.

Raptor

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2013, 11:06:17 AM »
They are not the same. There is a difference between your FFL keeping copies of the yellow sheets, and the police keeping a copy of the yellow sheets in a centralized database. There is a difference between a NICS check and a registration (or at least, by law there is supposed to be). Just in case, my state runs PICS.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=4451&&PageID=461119&mode=2

Every state can run its own instant check system, rather than rely on NICS. 20 states do. If your state is using the federal NICS system, that is by choice. Comes down to trust. By law, background check is not supposed to be used for any other purpose, including registration. But... Who do you trust? I trust the PSP to follow their orders, which are likely not to include mass registration. I mostly trust the PSP management. FBI...  Well. Only takes one database geek to retain the records of every check. Even if every single agent is honest and follows the law, it doesn't mean their management will.


Way I heard it, PA runs a NICS check as well as a PICS check, and the PSP allegedly keeps the forms from all handgun purchases on file instead of destroying them after a week (or however long it is before they're supposed to destroy them) in defiance of state statutes. Of course, odds are that I heard wrong....
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ksuguy

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2013, 11:29:30 AM »
Of course they keep the data.  It doesn't matter that the law says they can't.
Kansas

Panhead Bill

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2013, 02:44:50 PM »
A couple weeks ago on AAR David Codrea (I think) mentioned an alternative system to NICS that did background checks without any registration or retention of records. He suggested proposing that system in lieu of NICS in the course of debates with anti's. I don't recall the system he mentioned, nor had I heard of it before.

Did anyone else hear what he was talking about on AAR or know what system he was talking about?

Bill
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RMc

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2013, 07:55:21 PM »


Here it is:

B.I.D.S:  Blind Identification Data System.

As explained by Alan Korwin:

http://www.gunlaws.com/BIDS%20v.%20NICS.htm

And detailed here:

http://www.gunlaws.com/BIDS%20v.%20NICS.htm

I suspect the interjection of B.I.D.S. into the "Congressional Bill Blender" would result in apoplectic rage from the mainstream media and the Democratic Party Left.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 08:08:08 PM by RMc »
Alabama

RMc

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2013, 12:23:13 PM »

Since record checks for retail firearms purchase are required by law and it seems the extention of record checks to all purchases may happen, should the BIDS system be introduced into the debate?

It appears to me the only real objection from anti-rights lawmakers would be that it inhibits or prevents centralized owner registration.  Certainly such a system sould be desirable, if only for the reduced funding required.
--------------------------

"BIDS v. NICS
If we must have gun-buyer background checks to stop criminals,
at least do it without compiling massive records on the innocent.
A simple system called BIDS can do this,
and at far less cost than NICS.

Basically, BIDS distributes the list of hardcore prohibited possessors
to federally licensed firearm dealers. Dealers check their customers
against the computerized list to lockout illegal sales.
This maintains the privacy of innocent citizens and
eliminates the potential for illegal government registries.
It's simple. It's cheap. It works. Do it.

BIDS: “Blind Identification Database System”

by Alan Korwin, Author
Gun Laws of America

See: http://www.gunlaws.com/BIDS%20v.%20NICS.htm

Alabama

RevDisk

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Re: Record check vs Registration - A discussion:
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2013, 02:36:48 PM »
Way I heard it, PA runs a NICS check as well as a PICS check, and the PSP allegedly keeps the forms from all handgun purchases on file instead of destroying them after a week (or however long it is before they're supposed to destroy them) in defiance of state statutes. Of course, odds are that I heard wrong....

Handguns, yes. Long rifles and shotguns, no. I'm not exactly sure how that works. We have a law on the books for no gun registries. But some judge argued it's a sales registry, and that's different.

Basically, no one has really sued the PSP over it, preferably with a good lawyer. Law is pretty clear.
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to welcome dawn and fear the coming night.
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