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Author Topic: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences  (Read 1313 times)

Fenderbassist

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One example of these being, an accidental discharge is viewed as criminalized negligent conduct in Arizona.

Which means, it's a felony offense with a mandatory prison sentence when you are convicted for an accidental discharge that was not a malfunction in the weapon design.  Judges are not given the ability to give probation in firearm-related cases because they have Mandatory Minimum Sentences upon conviction.

He's a former Marine so he's not an "inexperienced" firearm owner, and I'm pretty sure he's talking to semi-auto carriers here.


This is covered more here.


Be safe, my friends!
« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 01:23:57 PM by Fenderbassist »
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    scarville

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #1 on: January 11, 2017, 10:56:01 PM »
    I know Marc Victor slightly and have enormous respect for him.  I think he is wrong about carrying with an empty chamber* from a "tactical" standpoint.  However, he does have a point legally.  Everything else he says comports with my understanding of how real court cases go.

    * For the record, I carry a revolver with all chambers loaded!
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    armoredman

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #2 on: January 12, 2017, 11:59:38 AM »
    I have lived in Arizona for 50 years, carried a firearm legally in AZ for 34 years, (yes, since 16), and have worked in the law enforcement community for 15 years - never heard that once. I know many idiots over the years that have had negligent discharges, never heard of felonies being levied against them. However, if you do an idiot move and have a negligent disharge that hurts someone, well, the old story has always been, you are responsible for every bullet that comes out the barrel of that firearm!
    As for not carrying a round chambered...please forgive me, but my training both military and civilian LE all say the same thing - no, bad advice. If it were true, then LE would also be taught to carry chamber empty, not because it is smart or safe, but to avoid lawsuits. Every time I strap my issued Glock on my side, it is hot. Period. Same with my off duty CZ P-09. BUT, I have had much training over the years and I am pretty sure that I learned the number one safety rule, keep your booger hook off the bang switch until you want a bang.
    I would ask Mr Victor, who, according to the web, is this, " Certified Criminal Defense Attorney - Other areas of law include, Personal Injury, DUI, Family Law, Wrongful Death and Civil Law", how many cases he has personally seen of this type? This reminds me of the "no using handloads for self defense" one.
    Again, I'm sorry, I mean no disrespect to the man personally, but from my perspective, I just don't see it, unless you cause damage or injury/death during your negligent discharge. Then I see full prosecution.

    Incidentally, he switches terms back and forth in his video, "accidental" and "negligent". They are two completely different terms legally. An accidental discharge would mean the firearm itself malfunctioned, as if the shooter follows the 4 rules, there can be no accidental discharge. A shooter who does not practice safety may experience a negligent discharge, which means NOT following safety rules and/or being careless with a firearm. I have to say, if you end up in court on just that one charge alone, you really peed in someone's Wheaties, as a lot of firearm charges get pled or plea bargained away.
    « Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 12:11:05 PM by armoredman »

    Fenderbassist

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #3 on: January 12, 2017, 12:49:31 PM »
    I know Marc Victor slightly and have enormous respect for him.  I think he is wrong about carrying with an empty chamber* from a "tactical" standpoint.  However, he does have a point legally.  Everything else he says comports with my understanding of how real court cases go.

    * For the record, I carry a revolver with all chambers loaded!

    ROFL well I also carry a revolver with all chambers loaded, and as I pointed out I felt he was referring to semi autos :)  There's only one way to carry a revolver  :)
    ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

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    Fenderbassist

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #4 on: January 12, 2017, 01:22:05 PM »
    I have lived in Arizona for 50 years, carried a firearm legally in AZ for 34 years, (yes, since 16), and have worked in the law enforcement community for 15 years - never heard that once. I know many idiots over the years that have had negligent discharges, never heard of felonies being levied against them. However, if you do an idiot move and have a negligent disharge that hurts someone, well, the old story has always been, you are responsible for every bullet that comes out the barrel of that firearm!
    As for not carrying a round chambered...please forgive me, but my training both military and civilian LE all say the same thing - no, bad advice. If it were true, then LE would also be taught to carry chamber empty, not because it is smart or safe, but to avoid lawsuits. Every time I strap my issued Glock on my side, it is hot. Period. Same with my off duty CZ P-09. BUT, I have had much training over the years and I am pretty sure that I learned the number one safety rule, keep your booger hook off the bang switch until you want a bang.
    I would ask Mr Victor, who, according to the web, is this, " Certified Criminal Defense Attorney - Other areas of law include, Personal Injury, DUI, Family Law, Wrongful Death and Civil Law", how many cases he has personally seen of this type? This reminds me of the "no using handloads for self defense" one.
    Again, I'm sorry, I mean no disrespect to the man personally, but from my perspective, I just don't see it, unless you cause damage or injury/death during your negligent discharge. Then I see full prosecution.

    Incidentally, he switches terms back and forth in his video, "accidental" and "negligent". They are two completely different terms legally. An accidental discharge would mean the firearm itself malfunctioned, as if the shooter follows the 4 rules, there can be no accidental discharge. A shooter who does not practice safety may experience a negligent discharge, which means NOT following safety rules and/or being careless with a firearm. I have to say, if you end up in court on just that one charge alone, you really peed in someone's Wheaties, as a lot of firearm charges get pled or plea bargained away.

    How long does a person have to live in Arizona or carry a firearm or work in a prison before they are considered Experts in Criminal Law?

    Do you have Expert Witness status?  How many criminal cases have you worked on?

    Is there a difference in the duty or expectation of carrying a semi-automatic sidearm with a round loaded in the chamber between a civilian and a prison guard?

    What is the policy for prison guards in regards to the condition of their carrying, and what options do they have?

    What is involved regarding the State of Arizona Bar to certify an attorney as a Specialist in Criminal Law?  What's the average percentage of lawyers that are certified so in any area, in Arizona?

    Does Arizona criminalize negligent conduct including accidental discharges?

    When defendants end up taking plea deals, does this prevent them from being given felony sentences?

    (yes, when you did the same "song and dance" in my FOPA thread, without providing any supporting evidence for all of us to benefit and learn from, I let it go...but like with most of your clientel at work, the first one's free, you're gonna have to earn this one)

     :clap
    « Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 01:50:00 PM by Fenderbassist »
    ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

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    Kaso

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #5 on: January 12, 2017, 01:52:46 PM »
    Good edit. ^  I was about to come down on you.  WTA members are friends, and a measure of respect in posts is appreciated.  I am glad that you recognized that before someone had to say it.  :thumbup1
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    Fenderbassist

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #6 on: January 12, 2017, 02:11:28 PM »
    Good edit. ^  I was about to come down on you.  WTA members are friends, and a measure of respect in posts is appreciated.  I am glad that you recognized that before someone had to say it.  :thumbup1

    When those that present information they found to share and perhaps discuss bump heads with those that are only interested in their opinion, it's never fun for those that want to share and discuss.

    You and he are the only two I've ever had an issue with.  And you apparently flock together.  I'll leave you two to your work and go elsewhere.  Thanks.
    ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

    Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. - William Shakespeare

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    Kaso

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #7 on: January 12, 2017, 02:22:37 PM »
    You and he are the only two I've ever had an issue with.  And you apparently flock together.  I'll leave you two to your work and go elsewhere.  Thanks.
    :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

    Oh, the riot!  You typed a post that made you sound like a royal jerk, and then you edited it to still get your point across, but in a friendlier way.  And I told you how I approved, so now you are upset? :facepalm

    Let's be clear: WTA is a club of friends.  We are civil, unlike most of the internet.  Yes, I am about as hardnosed as you will find around here, but I do still appreciate civility. 

    If you are put off by my intense personality, you would not be the first one.  ;) Still, I have dipped my toes into some other online gun forums, and... I don't think I'm all that unpleasant. :shrug
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    Here's to a great four years!

    coyotesfan97

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #8 on: January 12, 2017, 02:35:16 PM »
    One of the culpable mental states in Arizona is criminal negligence so yes it sometimes get criminalized.

    In the circumstances of a ND you're possibly looking at getting charged with disorderly conduct 13-2904.A6 but the culpable mental state is recklessly and the penalty in ARS is a class six felony which is the lowest level.

    In my experience to get charged you've either injured someone in which case you're probably looking at other charges or the round you fired goes into a neighboring house or apartment but didn't injure anyone.

    IMHO as a LE Officer, i.e. not legal advice, the chances of going to prison are slim unless you seriously injured someone. More than like a plea bargain will reduce it to a Class One misdemeanor or a designated six. On a designated six if you meet the terms of probation it'll usually get dropped to a misdemeanor.

    As far as carrying without a round in the chamber he's pretty clear he's talking about it in a legal/liability mindset. In other words he's giving you his legal advice while admitting it it makes more sense tactically to carry with a round in the chamber.

    The more you manipulate a semi auto the more likely you are however slim to ND. If you do chamber a round in an incident per Mr Victor now you have to empty the chamber to holster.

    With that thinking you revolver guys would be carrying with an empty cylinder next to the round under the hammer so you'd have to rotate the cylinder twice to fire to prevent NDs . 


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    RetroGrouch

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #9 on: January 12, 2017, 03:29:11 PM »
    I don't remember hearing anything about being charged with a felony for a ND back when I took the AZ CCW class, of course it has been more than a few years.


    I would NOT carry a semi-auto without a round chambered.  Follow the rules of gun safety and you shouldn't have an ND that injures someone or damages something.
    Arizona

    MTK20

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #10 on: January 12, 2017, 05:14:33 PM »
    When those that present information they found to share and perhaps discuss bump heads with those that are only interested in their opinion, it's never fun for those that want to share and discuss.

    You and he are the only two I've ever had an issue with.  And you apparently flock together.  I'll leave you two to your work and go elsewhere.  Thanks.

    Did he just take his ball and go home?

    Wasn't expecting that one.

    :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

    Oh, the riot!  You typed a post that made you sound like a royal jerk, and then you edited it to still get your point across, but in a friendlier way.  And I told you how I approved, so now you are upset? :facepalm

    Let's be clear: WTA is a club of friends.  We are civil, unlike most of the internet.  Yes, I am about as hardnosed as you will find around here, but I do still appreciate civility. 

    If you are put off by my intense personality, you would not be the first one.  ;) Still, I have dipped my toes into some other online gun forums, and... I don't think I'm all that unpleasant. :shrug


    You only wish you were hard nosed and insufferable  ;). You come across that way sometimes through text, but I know otherwise  :cool. I reckon its a communication thing, not a manners thing  :shrug.



    Now, onto this post. I feel we could go even further. If one wants to not risk liability for carrying a gun, then don't carry a gun. The same could be said for driving a vehicle or even having someone to come onto your property to do manual labour.

    What we find is that while one would be free of all potential liability, it would be a very constrained and unfeasible living situation. You must drive, you must get property/home maintenance done, and you must be responsible for you and your family's safety. I swear, it is as if lawyers and court rooms have lost all sense  :banghead.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
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    armoredman

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #11 on: January 14, 2017, 01:22:19 PM »
    I apologize if I offended by pointing out personal direct experience in this subject. Please continue to have a nice day.

    Chief45

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #12 on: January 14, 2017, 11:06:57 PM »
    Dave Spaulding quoted someone this week like that.   Something like. Your opinion does not trump my personal direct experience. 


    I apologize if I offended by pointing out personal direct experience in this subject. Please continue to have a nice day.
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    armoredman

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #13 on: January 15, 2017, 05:31:42 PM »
    It's completely unimportant. Everyone is completely free to make up his or her own mind. I urge everyone to enjoy the rest of the day. I'm going to go barbecue pork and drink beer.

    MTK20

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    Re: A note for my AZ neighbors....Arizona's Mandatory Minimum Sentences
    « Reply #14 on: January 15, 2017, 06:34:20 PM »
    It's completely unimportant. Everyone is completely free to make up his or her own mind. I urge everyone to enjoy the rest of the day. I'm going to go barbecue pork and drink beer.

    Agreed. Pork and beer sounds much better than internet bickering  :thumbup1.

    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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